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How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Support and feedback for Acoustica's Mixcraft audio mixing software.

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chibear
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby chibear » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:11 pm

OK, So going waaaay back to the OP and his Reaper example. I have a project with about 40 tempo changes implemented via either markers or conductor track (as we are bringing in other DAWs). So I use the project tempo slider thingy and it changes all the different tempos relative to the original tempo?? Ya, I want that 8). Knowing a fair bit of coding, I would also like to see how that would be accomplished in a 40+ track project....if anyone wants to share :mrgreen:
Last edited by chibear on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby outteh » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:00 pm

I've run into exactly what AJ describes several times. There are work a rounds that are tedious but it can be done. The basic functionality is slow down your projects tracks so you can play along at a slower tempo to make a difficult lick easier. Once you have it, you set your project back to the correct tempo and all is well. I have had tracks that are a series of loops. I ensure the loops are set to adjust to project tempo and the loop starts at the beginning of the measure using snap. Then when you adjust the tempo each loop individually adjusts. Sometimes I have to tweak each measure. This problem is only with audio clips. MIDI clips seem to adjust just fine. Yes, keep the pitch so when you return to normal speed, everything is OK. You can always adjust pitch by itself whenever you feel the need. :D
Just saw Chibear's post. Not sure if this could be implemented across a project that adjusts tempo by markers at multiple locations already! That would really be something in the programming world! :D

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby mick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:53 pm

Been struggling to differentiate between playback speed and tempo but suddenly after Chibear's reference to speed while "retaining relative tempo" it all falls into place. I think "formant" has some meaning in the case of retaining audio integrity relative to speed especially with human voice, ie the Pinky and Perky effect as I mentioned before in jest.

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby Acoustica Greg » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:18 pm

I had to google Pinky and Perky.
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby AHornsby » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:47 pm

chibear wrote: I have a project with about 40 tempo changes implemented via either markers or conductor track (as we are bringing in other DAWs). So I use the project tempo slider thingy and it changes all the different tempos relative to the original tempo?? Ya, I want that 8).


Thank you.

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby AHornsby » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:23 pm

aj113 wrote:Notice the word "return". What do you think that could possibly mean? Come on now, I know you can do it......


Is there really a need to slow down 40 tracks just to record something correctly? And correct me if I'm wrong but when you state 'return to the correct speed' you DO mean return to the original project BPM right? What it could possibly mean is that a track had a different tempo than the project or other tracks within the project.

It's too bad that you find Mixcraft so onerous. Maybe you could turn the page and let everybody know what features all the other DAW's have that Mixcraft doesn't, so they could just program the perfect DAW for you all at once. Or better yet, make some attempt to recognize that trying to insult people won't make you a musician.

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby aj113 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:11 pm

AHornsby wrote:...Is there really a need to slow down 40 tracks just to record something correctly?
Yes. How else do you suggest it is done, and why do you think people would ask for it if it wasn't necessary? Why is this an issue for you?

And correct me if I'm wrong but when you state 'return to the correct speed' you DO mean return to the original project BPM right? What it could possibly mean is that a track had a different tempo than the project or other tracks within the project.
But since nobody has said anything abot slowing down a single track, and the whole thread is about slowing down the playback speed of a project, it's not likely to mean that, is it?

It's too bad that you find Mixcraft so onerous.
Another straw man. I didn't say Mixcraft is onerous, I said that the task of slowing down the playback is onerous - as others have also said.

Maybe you could turn the page and let everybody know what features all the other DAW's have that Mixcraft doesn't, so they could just program the perfect DAW for you all at once.
Yes, that's the way it works. It's called a feature request. It's a very common practice with all software. You should try it, instead of objecting to the feature requests of others on no grounds other than you don't think it's necessary.

Or better yet, make some attempt to recognize that trying to insult people won't make you a musician.
Yet another straw man. I never said anything abut my own playing. I run a professional recording studio, some clients want this facility. If you can point to where I have insulted anyone, I will apologise.

I didn't realise we had to get your approval in order to request a feature in MC, you should have made it clear earlier. At least we all know for the future now.

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby mick » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:56 am

Here they are the famous Pinky and Perky from 1960's British TV, but instead of upping the playback speed a frequency doubler was used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olGim6tf6tc

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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby chibear » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:00 am

Probably the same technique used in this American classic from the same period: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VUIAkGLbSNc
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Mark Bliss
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby Mark Bliss » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:04 am

chibear wrote: OK, So going waaaay back to the OP and his Reaper example.

Yeah I haven't read all the replies, so at this point, I may be repeating something already said or appear to be rambling incoherently, I don't know. Just trying to remain constructive.

chibear wrote: I have a project with about 40 tempo changes implemented via either markers or conductor track (as we are bringing in other DAWs). So I use the project tempo slider thingy and it changes all the different tempos relative to the original tempo?? Ya, I want that 8). Knowing a fair bit of coding, I would also like to see how that would be accomplished in a 40+ track project....if anyone wants to share :mrgreen:

I think you raise very good points about the viability and potential limits of such a feature.

On its surface, slowing (or potentially speeding up I guess) a project intuitively seems like it should work, and appears to be an attractive function.

The first minor problem as I see it, is- say I wish to simply slow a project and practice a passage. If I used BPM (And for discussion sake, we are imagining that worked as desired) say 15%, when I wanted to go back to the original playback speed, I would need to remember what that BPM was..... There's where I think the slider is a great feature addition. Simply return to the 0 setting.

Now the challenge presented by clips, timing and indeed as Chibear points out- tempo changes, makes successful time stretching far more complicated than is immediately apparent.

I don't have Reaper installed here, don't need the distraction. But I do know some people who use it and will be asking around this weekend to see how this works, hopefully answering some of these questions.

And lastly (for now) one use for the function in mind would potentially include the concept of recording at the reduced speed, then returning back to normal playback speed.
This would also be more complicated than is immediately apparent.
If recording audio, this would require time stretching back up to project speed, and as anyone who has messed with this knows, results vary. Some audio just doesn't work well being manipulated much this way.
But if working with MIDI, it would require consideration of time offsets for every note, or quantizing shifts, and other fine details that could quickly become quite complicated I reckon'

And of course, all of these are part of the reason simply changing the BPM doesn't work as expected right?
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby JonInc » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:11 am

So basically we're talking about a way to speed up or slow down project sections of any length, whether audio or midi, in as simple a method as possible. Right?

I think this would best be accomplished by offering a tempo track/view that adjusts both midi and audio (recorded or loops) where the user draws in the tempo changes, and the project follows the "automation".

For example, here's how Sonar's Tempo View works:

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Arranging.45.html

And in Studio One v3 -- Creating Tempo Variations with Tempo Track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrlh_NV_sE0

I hope these maybe give the MC programmers some ideas on how to approach the task. :idea: :)

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Mark Bliss
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby Mark Bliss » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:37 pm

JonInc wrote:So basically we're talking about a way to speed up or slow down project sections of any length, whether audio or midi, in as simple a method as possible. Right?

Not really Jon, my interpretation and understanding of the original question has nothing to do with "sections" but just the ability to reliably slow down the project playback while retaining pitch.

But it does occur to me now that another common request- for a tempo automation lane or function- (along the lines of what you are showing here) kind of keyholes in with this at least in that the obstacles and therefor programming to accomplish these two features may overlap somewhat. Not sure about that.

So far I have spoken to users of Reaper and of Logic, both state they have the ability to slow project playback while retaining pitch. The slider shown in the OP for Reaper, and something called "vari-speed" in Logic.
In fact, my questions seem to cause confusion as this appears to be common standard stuff.....

Seems that while we have some time stretching functions, we need a little evolution here perhaps?
Both appear to be viable Mixcraft 9 feature requests anyway IMO.
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Re: How can you adjust PLAYBACK RATE for entire project?

Postby JonInc » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:10 am

Mark Bliss wrote:
JonInc wrote:So basically we're talking about a way to speed up or slow down project sections of any length, whether audio or midi, in as simple a method as possible. Right?


Not really Jon, my interpretation and understanding of the original question has nothing to do with "sections" but just the ability to reliably slow down the project playback while retaining pitch.


Hi, Mark. I was including the entire project in my thinking too, hence the part "sections of any length". But yeah, I could have worded that better.

Based on how I see other DAWs approaching this, they don't make that distinction anyway. The user just selects the affected area, whether it's one bar or the whole project, and makes the desired change.

As you point out, it's all under the same logic umbrella. The two examples I gave show that at least two other DAWs took the same basic approach, with the ability to add a tempo lane. From there, they veer off in slightly different directions, but my point is that this stuff has all been done before. It's not necessary to re-invent the wheel.

If I were to advise the MC coding team, I'd tell them to analyze how all the other major DAWs handle tempo changes (I guess I already did that -LOL), take the best bits, and create their own approach for Mixcraft.


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