testing the waters...

[Mab098157]

first posting of original work in progress

https://soundcloud.com/mark-bowie/what- ... you-111813

looking for feedback

[Mark Bliss]

Hi Mark!
I'm Mark. Since your new, I will add to my introduction that my critiques can come across wrong, as I tend to be bluntly honest. I assure you it is meant as constructive criticism, and that it is provided in the hope we can all learn together!
I hope in return you will discuss what you did, and how you got the results OK?

First off, I truly dig the crunchy driving guitar rhythm and tone that drives the tune, Nice!
And both the vocal and lyrics are catchy, Also very nice.
My suggestions:
First as to arrangement, the piano has timing issues through out the piece. It really needs to be tightened up to the rhythm of the song. Also, it sounds like you might want to high pass the piano hard to kill the frequencies competing in its lower range.
The lead guitar section is very simplistic, and that might actually be fine for the song, but again, it needs to be timed more tightly to the beat.
Next on the mix. The vocal needs to be more "up front" in the mix. It is the point of focus of the song. The level isnt bad, but theres some over-processing issues there I think.
And some of the backing instruments walk on the lyrics at times. Maybe try automating a level fade on the keys, slightly reducing them during the vocal phrases.
When the lead guitar comes in, it should take center stage. Turn down the keys. Probably all the way during that section. Then fade the lead guitar section so it doesn't walk all over the vocal parts re-entry at the end of the lead guitar solo.
There's a funky edit at about 3:58 or so.
I like the organ swell near the end, I might try bumping that up ever so slightly and see what it sounds like.
Did you use a lot of compression inserts on the tracks or did you put a compressor or limiter on the main bus? Either way, pull it back, you've lost too much of the dynamics on the song.
Again, love the rhythm guitar though. Leave it largely as is!

[Mab098157]

Mark, Thanks for taking the time to listen and critique my work. You feedback is appreciated and taken with the acceptance of humility. Your feedback was great. I have been living in the bubble and an outside perspective is important.

I wrote this back in early 80's and have just recently entered the world of DAW since my children are now young adults and I have some "me" time again. I haven't really played in the last 20 years. Granted it's still only about 10-20 hours a month. Still in a learning curve from the old days of 4 track cassette record.

Crunch guitar has been a concern with some of my other friends, but I'm sticking with it. I think it's drive of the song is critical. Thanks for the validation.

Vocal, I finally felt comforable moving them up in the mix. First mixes of this song they were just something in the background.

Compression is still some what of a mystery to me. I have used compression on all tracks, except keys. Felt I need to use it the even out the performance. And on main bus added limiter. I will experiment with different use of compression.

I haven't really "ridden the fader" and have been utilizing the eq and stereo sprectrum to bring out the track. I will take your recommendation and drop some tracks during some of the events.

Edit problem at 3:58, again working in a bubble I didn't even notice this.

Overall timing issues. I have tried to keep the arrangement loose. My benchmark for this prodcition has been 1970 "Layla and other assorted love songs" and "Abby Road". Falling short of each obviously, but I wanted to have that "room jam" feel. Recording alone creates the temptation to have everything perfect, but lose the feel of a group collarboration. I consider myself somewhat adaquate on each instrument, but not proficent. I have had some of these tracks in there since Jan. and have been tempted to start all over, but wanted to forge ahead and finish something.

The development since Jan. has been tremendous.

Thanks again and I will repost after some more work.

[Mark Bliss]

No one else? Guess its back to me......

Preachin' to the choir. When I started experimenting with home recording multitrack cassette rigs were still but a dream. 4 track reel-to-reel equipment was about as economical as you could get....... And the gear to put together even a simple functional studio was still out of reach. Anyway:

As far as the timing comments, I did not mean to imply that the timing needed to be so tight as to become mechanical, I am with you on the human factor. But theres a limit, and in my opinion, theres a lot of room for improvement there, thats all.

Looking forward to see what you come up with.

[outteh]

Agree with Mark, getting to produce clean sounds with all instruments not crowding each other and overpowering is tough. I would suggest you bring down the volume on all the tracks, try to get none of them to even go in the yellow. Then experiment with the stereo field panning instruments left and right, just slightly to put them in their own space. Then you can automate the rise and fall of the instruments as you get into intros, chorus, finale. Good work on this though. As Mark points out it takes time.

[benhal9]

ok... where to begin... First, that is one hell of a rightiuos tune that takes me back to Steve Miller type stuff if he had a mean dirty guitar. The feel of it was superb... the bad news is mbliss right. There is poping and timeing issues in there but they are not bad and with a little focus you can get them. I was left out a bit at the guitar solo. But it is your song not mine. More plez.

[Mab098157]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

New mix

https://soundcloud.com/mark-bowie/what-i-mean-to-you

quantized keys, added some automation. Remove a lot of track compression causing pops when conflicting with sub mix compression. Remove limiter on main bus.

Getting there?

[Tiasdad]

Hi Mark, I'm far from expert but that second version sounds so much more controlled. Maybe a little less on the kick drum & lead guitar for balance

I agree, it does sound very like Steve Miller Band. Very nice tune

[Mark Bliss]

I just listened on a mobile source, have to get to my headphones and monitors for some closer/more accurate scrutiny.

My initial reaction: the timing is much better, that obvious edit seems to be cleaned up and overall there is much improvement! Good work!
Much of the vocal still seems slightly washed out, and the emphasis on the "TIME" and "NOW" in the chorus is a bit strong. And the crash cymbal at the fills or section changes is a bit hot.

On the vocal, I don't know what you have on that track, but just guessing I would ease off any overall reverb/delay on the track a bit. The above mentioned words need to be leveled out a bit, I would use automated level rides to tame them so they don't jump out so strongly. Some emphasis is fine and seems warranted for the style, but its a bit strong.
I would also experiment with the delay effect on those words to try and roll it in with the tail, but less on the beginning of the words if possible.
Once the vocal track is leveled out, (shoot for even through out for a good starting point) I would add just a touch of compression. Then a high pass on the vocal, killing all low frequencies, and add bit of an eq boost in the roughly 4K range (Again, guessing) might help clarify the vocal track a little too. After all that, you might find you can turn up the entire vocal track ever so slightly, and better (and more clearly) hear every phrase.

That crash cymbal sizzles, and that's fine if that's what you like. I would recommend trying simply turning it down a little. Then maybe a little more.

The guitar lead, perhaps especially being so simple, really doesn't need to be quite so loud as much as stand its ground by turning other tracks down. I would try lowering its level a little and during the solo section, completely roll off everything but the drum and rhythm guitar. Probably roll off the rhythm guitar slightly too though. Roll the levels back up after the following vocal phrase begins.
Sometimes the temptation is to add emphasis on something by turning it up, when its really best to turn other things down instead!

Kind of the same for the vocal track too, sometimes there's just a bit too much going on behind them. Try focusing on hearing those other instruments more between the vocal phrases, and having less of them during.Sometimes the temptation is to add emphasis on something by turning it up, when its really best to turn other things down instead!

Remember this order of importance for this style/genre-
1st: Vocal!
2nd: Rhythm tracks
Distant third, Other melodies and pads/space filler.

Level rides are your friend. Your approaching that point where the tweaks and adjustments become smaller and finer, and the results can really begin to amaze! Keep tweaking and experimenting, its the best way for us to learn!
Thanks for sharing, and the invitation/opportunity to participate in the discussion.

Now the real question, how are you feeling about the project (besides the normal fatigue! ) And what do you want to change or improve? Its your baby!

[outteh]

Getting better! Couple of suggestions. he rhythm guitar seems over compressed - too mushy and lacking any dynamic range. Try reducing the compression/distortion and using some EQ adjustments to brighten it up a bit. Split the rythym and lead guitar in the stereo field one left one right - not a lot just separate them maybe 10-20 - experiment. Brighten the organ and use the volume automation to bring it up when it has a stand alone sound and reduce it to fill in with the rest of the instruments. Timing is still off in a few spots so be careful. As another experiment, on your vocals, try the FX preset Vocal - Studio and play with some of the settings to get your vocal clean and bright. Keep at ir brother - you're getting with each re-mix.

[benhal9]

They said everything important already. But I love the feel and concept of the song.

[Mab098157]

Mark - your pushing me deeper into my mix. Thanks. I hear improvement, and can see the next horizon. Revisited recording revolution and have some new directions to take. Taking sometime to work on my studio space. Currently everything packed into an armoire. 20 minutes to setup, get started, try not to disturb anyone, then pack it back up. My progress is helping justify a permanent space in the basement. Building the room this month. I'll post pics on the forum when completed . Until then spare time being spent on that.

[bbdrmz]

Very well put together song! Still some timing issues on drums and such, but it's a good song. I'll add that I really like your vocal. Nice Steely Dan feel.