Submix and Output tracks

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dgiven
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Submix and Output tracks

Post by dgiven » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:29 pm

Need some clarification on my workflow. First, here is my understanding of the different track types. Please correct me if I am mistaken....
When grouping individual tracks to a submix track, the submix track is routed to the master fader where additional effects can be applied (EQ or something). Individual tracks can also be routed to output tracks, but they do not appear to go through the master fader. My questions are: is there a way to route output tracks through the master fader (if so, how is that different than submix tracks)? Also, can you only render a mixdown with things that are hitting the master fader? Why would I want to use output tracks over submix tracks? Thanks...

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chibear
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by chibear » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:43 pm

Hi,

I'll try to help a bit. Others can amplify or correct me. From your post, I think you are over-complicating the process.
When grouping individual tracks to a submix track, the submix track is routed to the master fader where additional effects can be applied (EQ or something)
correct
Individual tracks can also be routed to output tracks, but they do not appear to go through the master fader.
While you can route your tracks through output tracks, you don't have to. Your individual tracks not in submixes are automatically routed through the Master fader and fx. I know this differs from many other DAWs I've tried in that you don't have to open an output, so step saved.
Also, can you only render a mixdown with things that are hitting the master fader?
You can render a selection or mix individual tracks down to wave. The options are in either the 'File' menu directly or 'File/Mix Down to'

Code: Select all

Why would I want to use output tracks over submix tracks? Thanks..
This I can't help with as I have never used that feature, only set up Multi-Channel VSTis which is a different thing. Hope this helps a bit.
Last edited by chibear on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Acoustica Greg
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Acoustica Greg » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:46 pm

Hi,

Some people use output bus tracks to send audio to a different playback device. For example, you could put a click track on headphones and put the main mix on studio monitors.

Here's a video that covers some other uses for output tracks in mixing: Mixcraft University: Mixing

Greg

aj113
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by aj113 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:48 pm

dgiven wrote:...My questions are: is there a way to route output tracks through the master fader? ...
No
dgiven wrote:...Also, can you only render a mixdown with things that are hitting the master fader?
No, output tracks will render too.
dgiven wrote:Why would I want to use output tracks over submix tracks? Thanks...
When you want a subgroup that isn't affected by the master bus processing.

If you use output tracks, be careful to set the MC master level slider at the final level you want, because it does not affect output tracks - i.e. if you have output tracks, and at some point you decide to take down the level of everything by dropping the MC master fader, the output tracks will remain at their current volume, so your overall balance will be lost.

Larioso
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Larioso » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:38 pm

Since output tracks has an easily selectable output in mixer I prefer that instead on main mix(swapping headphones and monitors outs is easier).

But if output track is used - the rendering is done apart from possible limiter on main mix.
So I route everything to a master output track, and nothing to main mix.


Look out if using output tracks for record monitor mixes - disable before rendering.

The rendering of output tracks is all weird as I see it - if to use it to send to external hardware effects - you have to disable it too before rendering.

So rendering of output tracks should really be chosen only if routed to same hardware outs as main mix setting in preferences. All other outs should not be part of rendering mixes.

Or very best and most flexible solution - allow routing to main mix from output track and enable an extra level of submixing. Don't ever render output tracks unless routed anyway to main mix track as such. Leave output tracks to be used for monitor cues or effect sends without fiddling once doing mixdown.

dgiven
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by dgiven » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:37 am

Larioso wrote:
Or very best and most flexible solution - allow routing to main mix from output track and enable an extra level of submixing.
This would be great, but someone else said that you can't route output tracks to the main mix. So, how would you do this? I suppose one method would be to render each output track as a separate wav file (guitars, drums, keys, etc.) then open up a new session an import the individual wav files as individual tracks. Then you can just level balance those tracks and process through the master fader. Any issues in doing this?

The reason I bring this topic up in the first place partly relates to panning. It seems that the panning of the submix track over rides the panning of the child tracks. Therefore, I need to have a submix for both left and right guitars, for example. If I send both submixes (L&R guitars) to an output track for all guitars, then I just have to worry about one fader instead of two. (unless I am doing something wrong in setting up my submixes).

Thanks to everyone for their input so far. :D

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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Anorax » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:57 am

dgiven wrote:
Larioso wrote:
Or very best and most flexible solution - allow routing to main mix from output track and enable an extra level of submixing.
This would be great, but someone else said that you can't route output tracks to the main mix. So, how would you do this? I suppose one method would be to render each output track as a separate wav file (guitars, drums, keys, etc.) then open up a new session an import the individual wav files as individual tracks. Then you can just level balance those tracks and process through the master fader. Any issues in doing this?

The reason I bring this topic up in the first place partly relates to panning. It seems that the panning of the submix track over rides the panning of the child tracks. Therefore, I need to have a submix for both left and right guitars, for example. If I send both submixes (L&R guitars) to an output track for all guitars, then I just have to worry about one fader instead of two. (unless I am doing something wrong in setting up my submixes).

Thanks to everyone for their input so far. :D
The submix track "overrides" the panning of the child tracks in the same way that the pan control of an audio track "overrides" the panning of a stereo sound clip.

As for your question (which seems to imply you want to do something similar to "nesting" the submixes), here's something you can do, without worrying about the Output busses, which are only really needed for situations requiring monitoring or crazy multi-speaker setups anyway.
Image

Here you have a left-panned Guitars submix, and a right-panned Guitars submix. Both submixes are being sent to the "Guitars" send track at 100% volume, pre-fader (the submix volume sliders are bypassed, allowing the original track to be "off" while still being sent to the Send track). This way, you have three tracks like you would with using an output bus track, but can control the guitar audio going to the main mix with a single slider. The only challenge this method presents is having to mix by either 1) setting the send amount knob, or 2)using automation like you would for the "track volume" automation control.
Last edited by Anorax on Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Acoustica Greg » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:01 am

Hi,

Yes, if you want to pan tracks in a submix, just don't pan the submix itself.

Greg

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Mark Bliss » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:15 am

I am not sure I understand what you all are saying. I experimented to see if I could figure it out, setting up left and right guitar tracks, routing them to a submix and as I expected based on previous mixes, The guitars are panned left and right and the panning of the submix pans the output to the main mix.
What are you all doin'? 8)
Guitsubmix.jpg
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dgiven
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by dgiven » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:19 am

I have been using a plugin to check my mixes in mono. Maybe I left it in mono when setting up panning on my submixes, so I was fooled to think that it wasn't working properly. I will check when I get home.

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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Anorax » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:45 am

Well, that'd be the culprit then.

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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Anorax » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:24 pm

Mark Bliss wrote:I am not sure I understand what you all are saying. I experimented to see if I could figure it out, setting up left and right guitar tracks, routing them to a submix and as I expected based on previous mixes, The guitars are panned left and right and the panning of the submix pans the output to the main mix.
What are you all doin'? 8)
Guitsubmix.jpg
Mark, from what I understand of the situation,
OP believes (or believed) that the submixes overrode the pan settings of the child tracks (which they don't), and was looking for a single-fader mixing solution for having a Left Guitar submix and Right Guitar submix. He theorized that the solution laid in the use of the output bus, but this type of track doesn't go to the main mix, hence his original questions.

The fault lies in the belief that a submix overrides the pan settings of the child track, which they don't.

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Mark Bliss » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:14 pm

I appreciate the effort at an explanation. I was beginning to think I was losing my somewhat feeble facilities, what with this thread and the recent influx of wordy lengthy explanations of odd routing methods that make absolutely no sense whatsoever no matter how many times I read them........ :roll:

I am hoping dgiven will return to tell us this was a misunderstanding and an attempt to solve a non existent problem. Or if not, explain some new trick that boggles my mind! 8)

I could use an inspiring mind boggle. :wink:
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dgiven
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by dgiven » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:03 pm

Thank you all for your time in effort in contributing to this thread. The bottom line is that I was fooled into thinking that the panning doesn't work on submix tracks, so I was looking for a solution using output tracks (which I now know I don't need to use). I posted that I may have left a plugin in mono on my master fader which I though might be the culprit, but it wasn't. After looking into it further I discovered the problem - finally! I was using the FreeG plugin on my submix track as a trim know. When enabled, the submix tracks go to mono since I was using the mono version, not the stereo version. Here's a screen shot with the submix setup and the plugin. Lesson learned. Thanks again for all of the help.
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Mark Bliss
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Re: Submix and Output tracks

Post by Mark Bliss » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:12 am

Thank you for letting us know what it was! And I am glad to hear you have it sorted.
Now lets hear some noise! 8)
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