PCIe To PCI Adapters
Moderators: Acoustica Greg, Acoustica Eric, Acoustica Dan, rsaintjohn
PCIe To PCI Adapters
I'm on the verge of getting a new PC. I'll probably get it custom built so that I can get exactly what I want. However, I'm not sure what to do about my old PCI soundcard (M-Audio Delta 66). I don't really want to change it as it does everything I need. So, I seem to have a choice between using a motherboard that has PCI slots or using one that only has PCIe - there appears to be more choice of these - and having a PCIe to PCI adapter so that I can still use my existing sound card. Does anyone have any experience/thoughts/recommendations about which option might be best?
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Have you considered getting a USB interface instead? I'm sure that the soundcard you have was top notch in it's day, and it may still do everything you require, but a newer USB interface might offer you some features you didn't even know you wanted or needed, and frankly, you can get them for not a lot of money when compared to the price of a new computer.
That said, your best bet, if you want to stick with what you have, is to purchase / build a computer that has a PCI slot. I know that most motherboards still have PCI slots on them. It took me like 4 clicks at newegg to find a motherboard with two PCI slots. Yes, they also have PCIe slots, so you'll just have to be aware of exactly what you're buying, but the fact is that many still have the old PCI slots.
That said, your best bet, if you want to stick with what you have, is to purchase / build a computer that has a PCI slot. I know that most motherboards still have PCI slots on them. It took me like 4 clicks at newegg to find a motherboard with two PCI slots. Yes, they also have PCIe slots, so you'll just have to be aware of exactly what you're buying, but the fact is that many still have the old PCI slots.
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Your sound card is 15 years old. You are buying a new saddle for an old horse.
A lot has happened in the meantime.
I used to have a soundcard that was top notch at the time, but then I decided for a Focusrite firewire interface. Never looked back a second. There are so many useful features on this that an internal soundcard can never compete with. I now build a new pc and the interface migrates too...
But sure you get mobos with pci slots.
-helmut
A lot has happened in the meantime.
I used to have a soundcard that was top notch at the time, but then I decided for a Focusrite firewire interface. Never looked back a second. There are so many useful features on this that an internal soundcard can never compete with. I now build a new pc and the interface migrates too...
But sure you get mobos with pci slots.
-helmut
C# or Bb!
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
And at 15 years old there is no telling how much longer it will be supported.
I have just looked at a thread on the M-Audio forum bemoaning the lack of windows 8 drivers for the Delta series of video card - Let alone WIndows 10.
Cheers
John
I have just looked at a thread on the M-Audio forum bemoaning the lack of windows 8 drivers for the Delta series of video card - Let alone WIndows 10.
Cheers
John
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
I had to face this issue around the start of the year when I decided to build a new computer, because I use an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI sound card and a small Mackie 402VLZ4 mixer that connect to each other via two stereo pairs of RCA phono leads, and I had no interest in spending more money changing to a USB interface.
I searched for the best motherboard I could find that would accommodate an Intel i7-4790K CPU, as well as 16GB of DDR3 RAM that could be upgraded in the future to 32GB. I therefore purchased an ASUS Z97-AR ATX motherboard, which has two PCI slots, although one is inaccessible thanks to being obscured by the GPU heatsink (what are these designers on?), so leaving one slot available for the AP2496 sound card.
I should add that, unless you also indulge in intensive top-notch 3D gaming, you might consider a fanless GPU to minimise noise. Mine is an XFX ATI Radeon HD6570 Fanless, with two DV-I outputs. There was originally a glitch in the display that was cured by a BIOS upgrade. The heatsinks can be very long with fanless GPUs, so care has to be taken in selecting a suitable case.
I hope all that's of some help.
I searched for the best motherboard I could find that would accommodate an Intel i7-4790K CPU, as well as 16GB of DDR3 RAM that could be upgraded in the future to 32GB. I therefore purchased an ASUS Z97-AR ATX motherboard, which has two PCI slots, although one is inaccessible thanks to being obscured by the GPU heatsink (what are these designers on?), so leaving one slot available for the AP2496 sound card.
I should add that, unless you also indulge in intensive top-notch 3D gaming, you might consider a fanless GPU to minimise noise. Mine is an XFX ATI Radeon HD6570 Fanless, with two DV-I outputs. There was originally a glitch in the display that was cured by a BIOS upgrade. The heatsinks can be very long with fanless GPUs, so care has to be taken in selecting a suitable case.
I hope all that's of some help.
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Ianpb,
(This is a bit OT). Funny I ended up with almost the same system as you.
The 4790k has graphics built into it. No worse than a cheap fanlass graphics card.
There is not many fanless graphics card you can find these days. Maybe they had cooling issues.
I had one dying for thermal reasons despite extra case fan (which made the decision redundant from a start
)
For DAW use, no fancy graphics card is needed. If you wanted to use CUDA, this is ridiculous with the current implementation. The CPU overhead needed to stuff a few bytes into the GPU is in no relation to the effect gained.
Back to internal soundcards. There is a fair chance of audio degrading if the soundcard is in the vicinity of switching signals, i.e. inside a PC. This is generally not an easy environment for a soundcard. RME have gone that way but look at their price tags.
With a system like the one described above you end up will all empty slots. Plenty of add-on cards.
Any adapter, (if such a thing exists at all...) would probably need their own chipset, which would make things slow. A native implementation is to be preferred...
-helmut
(This is a bit OT). Funny I ended up with almost the same system as you.
The 4790k has graphics built into it. No worse than a cheap fanlass graphics card.
There is not many fanless graphics card you can find these days. Maybe they had cooling issues.
I had one dying for thermal reasons despite extra case fan (which made the decision redundant from a start
)For DAW use, no fancy graphics card is needed. If you wanted to use CUDA, this is ridiculous with the current implementation. The CPU overhead needed to stuff a few bytes into the GPU is in no relation to the effect gained.
Back to internal soundcards. There is a fair chance of audio degrading if the soundcard is in the vicinity of switching signals, i.e. inside a PC. This is generally not an easy environment for a soundcard. RME have gone that way but look at their price tags.
With a system like the one described above you end up will all empty slots. Plenty of add-on cards.
Any adapter, (if such a thing exists at all...) would probably need their own chipset, which would make things slow. A native implementation is to be preferred...
-helmut
C# or Bb!
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Thanks for the replies guys.
Yes, I know my card is old but it still performs more than adequately. And Win 7 will be supported for 4 or 5 years yet.
I need 4 simultaneous, balanced, line level I/O's. I don't need mic pre's or MIDI capability as I already have all that as outboard gear. So, if I go for a USB interface it'll need to be more than a basic one - to give me the I/O's I need - I'll be buying capabilities that I don't need and it will have no audible improvements over my Delta 66.
Anyway, I was obviously misled when people kept telling me that PCI was well on its way out and MB's catering for it were hard to find. I'm looking at the Intel i7-4790K CPU and a Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H LGA1150 MB. Are you guys happy with the 4790? I'll be using a fanless power supply and maybe a fanless CPU cooler too if it isn't too costly. I've also got a couple of fanless GPU's laying around if the on-board graphics aren't up to the job. Should be pretty quiet
Again, thanks for taking the trouble to reply
Yes, I know my card is old but it still performs more than adequately. And Win 7 will be supported for 4 or 5 years yet.
I need 4 simultaneous, balanced, line level I/O's. I don't need mic pre's or MIDI capability as I already have all that as outboard gear. So, if I go for a USB interface it'll need to be more than a basic one - to give me the I/O's I need - I'll be buying capabilities that I don't need and it will have no audible improvements over my Delta 66.
Anyway, I was obviously misled when people kept telling me that PCI was well on its way out and MB's catering for it were hard to find. I'm looking at the Intel i7-4790K CPU and a Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H LGA1150 MB. Are you guys happy with the 4790? I'll be using a fanless power supply and maybe a fanless CPU cooler too if it isn't too costly. I've also got a couple of fanless GPU's laying around if the on-board graphics aren't up to the job. Should be pretty quiet
Again, thanks for taking the trouble to reply
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
If that is your requirement, might I suggest the Tascam US-1800. This product was recently discontinued, but you can still purchase in stock, new equipment. It has 6 balanced line inputs and 4 balanced line outputs. It's USB 2.0, which means just about anything will work with it. I use one and love it, and because it was recently discontinued, you can get it for super cheap right now.
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
I would also recommend getting a new sound card. Converters have improved significantly over the past two decades... I think you'd be very surprised at how much clearer the sound will be with even a modest-priced new interface.
That said, if you are dead set on keeping the Delta 66, you absolutely need to research what motherboard other PCI-card DAW users are successfully using in their systems. Many of the newer boards have their PCI slots "bridged", meaning no bus to itself -- which is fine for accomodating old video cards, add-on peripheral ports and the like, that don't need a lot of bandwidth. However, they are terrible for a DAW audio interface.
Bottom line, any new motherboard with a PCI slot won't necessarily work well with your card.
I suggest you call Jim Roseberry over at Studiocat. He's built hundreds of custom PCs for audio use over the years and stays current with PC components and audio interfaces and how they match up best. Even if he doesn't build a system for you, he can advise on what components to use/not use for your needs. A short phone consult will save you unnecessary headaches down the road.
That said, if you are dead set on keeping the Delta 66, you absolutely need to research what motherboard other PCI-card DAW users are successfully using in their systems. Many of the newer boards have their PCI slots "bridged", meaning no bus to itself -- which is fine for accomodating old video cards, add-on peripheral ports and the like, that don't need a lot of bandwidth. However, they are terrible for a DAW audio interface.
Bottom line, any new motherboard with a PCI slot won't necessarily work well with your card.
I suggest you call Jim Roseberry over at Studiocat. He's built hundreds of custom PCs for audio use over the years and stays current with PC components and audio interfaces and how they match up best. Even if he doesn't build a system for you, he can advise on what components to use/not use for your needs. A short phone consult will save you unnecessary headaches down the road.
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
I am currently building a system with a 4790K on a Z97 chipset based mobo.
I chose ASUS over Gigabyte because there were some rumours of audio interference with GB boards.
There was some scratching of head going into this build, so maybe you can profit from that.
Some commercial systems use a X99 based chipset, which is a gamer thing. The mobo´s and CPU´s are incredible expensive and an overkill for my usage.
My build is based upon a DAW build by a german online magazine. This may not be of much use to you due to the language, but you can glimpse on their choices.
Their choice of components may be slighly outdated (the article dates 2012), however the reasons behind their choices are useful.
Basically, this boils down to oversized - a big (silent) case to accomodate big components, big fans that run slow, a powerful processor, powerful PSU.
If you look, some companies offer exactly the same setup (except for the rack case).
I read the 4790K has a superior cooling scheme over the 4790, moreover you get it cheaper boxed (including the fan) than without. (Don´t get the blister pack since they provide limited warranty for that).
The boxed cpu fan is unused, if that mickey mouse thing is up to the task that it probably spins like a helicopter blade.
I used the NOctua NH-D14. If you look at that thing, it is a monster. The fan speed can be throttled right down.
The internal case fans are replaced by Noctua super silent fans that also run at low speed.
The power supply is a platinum grade (high efficient) 850W model, which is probably way oversized, but runs totally cool and low speed.
The CPU will not be overclocked, so no reason to spend money on OC mobo´s and memory.
You see, large scale components that run at minimal power. The PC (as they made it in the above mentioned magazine) has been inaudible (mine is not quite complete, but should be no different).
As mentioned, fanless graphic cards seem to be declined by the manufacturers and of questionable value for a DAW.
I currently have a 25$ Nvidia card in my PC that does CUDA. The demands for the graphics are exploding if you are gaming, so my card runs everything from DAW to film, photoshop and video editing flawlessly.
The internal CPU graphics will be no less fit for the task, and as mentioned earlier, CUDA usage of plug-ins is ridiculous.
Takes up a lot of GPU memory and probably needs more CPU power than you were trying to save by this measure.
Speak of driving out the devil with the beelzebub.
For your fanless system: no need for a fanless PSU or a fanless CPU cooler - go oversized and run slow. Establish a good airflow in your case by using super silent fans that run slow. Initially, monitor your temperatures with a software tool (like HW monitor) and hone ventilation if necessary. Don´t forget the hard disks, they need cooling too.
Don´t save on the case. This is necessary for a good airflow and good acoustic insulation. Those components are future proof (due to their sheer size), you have a good chance of being able to use them on a future build again.
have fun,
-helmut
addendum:
just looked at some review of the integrated intel HD4600 graphics. For a $0 graphics card, its performance is great. However, in the vicinity of dedicated graphics accelerator cards it falls short. If you are a hardcore gamer, you need a high blown graphics card, period.
addendum2:
if you are fixed about a dedicated graphics card then you might also consider the xeon e3-1231 (or even 1241) v3. Intel does not seem to dwell on this too much, but this CPU has the same interieur as the 4790 sans the GPU part. No need for fancy graphics on a workstation. Many gamers go that way. You can save a substantial almount on that.
I chose ASUS over Gigabyte because there were some rumours of audio interference with GB boards.
There was some scratching of head going into this build, so maybe you can profit from that.
Some commercial systems use a X99 based chipset, which is a gamer thing. The mobo´s and CPU´s are incredible expensive and an overkill for my usage.
My build is based upon a DAW build by a german online magazine. This may not be of much use to you due to the language, but you can glimpse on their choices.
Their choice of components may be slighly outdated (the article dates 2012), however the reasons behind their choices are useful.
Basically, this boils down to oversized - a big (silent) case to accomodate big components, big fans that run slow, a powerful processor, powerful PSU.
If you look, some companies offer exactly the same setup (except for the rack case).
I read the 4790K has a superior cooling scheme over the 4790, moreover you get it cheaper boxed (including the fan) than without. (Don´t get the blister pack since they provide limited warranty for that).
The boxed cpu fan is unused, if that mickey mouse thing is up to the task that it probably spins like a helicopter blade.
I used the NOctua NH-D14. If you look at that thing, it is a monster. The fan speed can be throttled right down.
The internal case fans are replaced by Noctua super silent fans that also run at low speed.
The power supply is a platinum grade (high efficient) 850W model, which is probably way oversized, but runs totally cool and low speed.
The CPU will not be overclocked, so no reason to spend money on OC mobo´s and memory.
You see, large scale components that run at minimal power. The PC (as they made it in the above mentioned magazine) has been inaudible (mine is not quite complete, but should be no different).
As mentioned, fanless graphic cards seem to be declined by the manufacturers and of questionable value for a DAW.
I currently have a 25$ Nvidia card in my PC that does CUDA. The demands for the graphics are exploding if you are gaming, so my card runs everything from DAW to film, photoshop and video editing flawlessly.
The internal CPU graphics will be no less fit for the task, and as mentioned earlier, CUDA usage of plug-ins is ridiculous.
Takes up a lot of GPU memory and probably needs more CPU power than you were trying to save by this measure.
Speak of driving out the devil with the beelzebub.
For your fanless system: no need for a fanless PSU or a fanless CPU cooler - go oversized and run slow. Establish a good airflow in your case by using super silent fans that run slow. Initially, monitor your temperatures with a software tool (like HW monitor) and hone ventilation if necessary. Don´t forget the hard disks, they need cooling too.
Don´t save on the case. This is necessary for a good airflow and good acoustic insulation. Those components are future proof (due to their sheer size), you have a good chance of being able to use them on a future build again.
have fun,
-helmut
addendum:
just looked at some review of the integrated intel HD4600 graphics. For a $0 graphics card, its performance is great. However, in the vicinity of dedicated graphics accelerator cards it falls short. If you are a hardcore gamer, you need a high blown graphics card, period.
addendum2:
if you are fixed about a dedicated graphics card then you might also consider the xeon e3-1231 (or even 1241) v3. Intel does not seem to dwell on this too much, but this CPU has the same interieur as the 4790 sans the GPU part. No need for fancy graphics on a workstation. Many gamers go that way. You can save a substantial almount on that.
C# or Bb!
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Thanks Joninc and aquataur. I'll have a good look at that site. Between my schoolboy German and Google translate I should be able to get the gist. Certainly lots of food for thought
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Just for the records...
I finished the PC as described above. Runs as predicted. No overclocking, no nothing.
(The supplied optimizing program went and evaluated the OC capability. It checks the systems´s thermal behavior by running the cores under full load and incrementing the OC values. Needless to say, this is useless and puts your hardware at risk. Not for a meagre gain of 11% performance.)
Full stock, the processor runs at 40 deg at full throttle. Not bad for those helicopter blades on the cpu cooler
I was very much interested in noise performance. Whoever auditioned the fan noise performance must have been half-deaf or doing it besides an airport. But to be fair, the noise is very low and in a frequency range that is not too obnoxious even at full load. I use normal spinning hard disks but these are really inaudible due to the case chosen.
CPU graphics work flawless up to now.
have fun,
-helmut
I finished the PC as described above. Runs as predicted. No overclocking, no nothing.
(The supplied optimizing program went and evaluated the OC capability. It checks the systems´s thermal behavior by running the cores under full load and incrementing the OC values. Needless to say, this is useless and puts your hardware at risk. Not for a meagre gain of 11% performance.)
Full stock, the processor runs at 40 deg at full throttle. Not bad for those helicopter blades on the cpu cooler
I was very much interested in noise performance. Whoever auditioned the fan noise performance must have been half-deaf or doing it besides an airport. But to be fair, the noise is very low and in a frequency range that is not too obnoxious even at full load. I use normal spinning hard disks but these are really inaudible due to the case chosen.
CPU graphics work flawless up to now.
have fun,
-helmut
C# or Bb!
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Thanks for the update Helmut. What fans are you using?
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Noctua FLX fans that can be operated with variable voltage i.e. at variable speeds. I run them at 600rpm.
They allegedly have a special blade geometry that further reduces noise and good bearings.
I am sure something like be-quiet! performs similarly.
-helmut
They allegedly have a special blade geometry that further reduces noise and good bearings.
I am sure something like be-quiet! performs similarly.
-helmut
C# or Bb!
Re: PCIe To PCI Adapters
Update to system performance.
I checked with a latency tool - < 10µs latency. cheers!
Caveat: do not install any asus (or other) "system tuning" tools. Those destroy all your measures for low latency and you have a hard time to get them rid again. Do all tuning (overclocking or whatever) in bios if you need so.
-helmut
I checked with a latency tool - < 10µs latency. cheers!
Caveat: do not install any asus (or other) "system tuning" tools. Those destroy all your measures for low latency and you have a hard time to get them rid again. Do all tuning (overclocking or whatever) in bios if you need so.
-helmut
C# or Bb!