Play and record live simultaneously...

[HerbyG]

Hey folks,
Old dude looking for a little procedural/setup help...for about a year and a half now, I have been using Mixcraft6 to record our 'band' (Guitarist/Vocals-Drummer/Vocals-Bass(me)-sometimes a second guitarist) Very basic setup just using one room mic into my steinbergCI1 usb interface into my laptop. Anyway, lately we've been feeling the desire to add some Wurly to some tunes. I have been playing around with Lounge Lizard and have come up with a sound that is getting close to what I'm after. (Wurly VSTi recommendations welcome) I have fiddled around and added it over a recorded track (along with a horn section) and can see the potential there. What we'd really like to do is setup mixcraft to record us on one track as per usual while at the same time have my midi keyboard setup with the Wurly preset armed and ready to be played live in the song. I seem to stumble on how to set this up in the room. If I leave the input to mixcraft as is and run my 'headphone' line out of the laptop into my keyboard amp, am I not also going to amplify the room recording track as well?
So basically, to anyone who uses mixcraft6 to play and record live simultaneously, how do you do it?
Cheers!

[7915983]

Why do you need a headphone line out? Can't you just record without one?

[AHornsby]

You're gonna need a bigger boat.

Well, another computer anyway. You might think about treating your MC driven Wurly as a single entity and then record your take on another separate computer. Personally I'm thinking that you're opening yourself up to a ton of issues beginning with the fact that no live take is possible as you are explaining it and the reason for that would be in regard to latency.

Other issues come to mind. Individual performances which might need to be comped and punched, for example.

Although it sounds like some good fun, I hope you let us know how you figure it all out. -h

[Juno]

Hi,

It's possible. I've tried it to be certain.

1. set up Mixcraft to record audio as you'd do otherwise
2. set up an instrument track, load your VSTi to it, and set it up to your satisfaction
3. do not monitor the audio track, so all audio that comes out of Mixcraft while you're recording, is just you playing the VSTi through your keyboard.

You will need to connect that audio out to an amp of sorts, which in turn makes it audible and recordable.
So: Mixcraft sends all audio (with monitoring off, that will be just your VSTi) to its master out. Depending on your hardware config, this can be a physical port on your internal sound card (phones, line out), or it can be the audio out (or phones, etc.) on your Steinberg interface (that would be best). So that then needs to be connected to the amp. Just like you would connect an electric guitar.

Now, you can play the keyboard along with the rest of the band, and you will record it all as audio. The VSTi will react as long as the track containing it is the active track (=selected) [1] and it does not need to be armed.

You may still do that though: arm the instrument track as well as the audio track, and then the midi will be recorded, too.
However, this makes the most sense if you can route all the instruments through a mixer first, and record it all from the mixer. You could, say, set up the mixer so that each instrument uses a separate channel and a separate Out; you can record those as as many audio tracks in Mixcraft (your mixer must support those multiple channels, of course, and you need to tell Mixcraft which track listens to which channel/input).

Another example: you might route the entire band on channel 1 in the mixer, and choose that channel as the input for the audio track in Mixcraft. Then, route the out of your audio interface to the second channel of the mixer, and route that one to a second audio track in Mixcraft.
It's often even possible to record the keyboard left on a single stereo channel and all the rest on the right of that channel (though you need serious mixing skills to process it all afterwards).

The advantage of multi-channel recording is that it becomes much easier to mix, edit etc. Or, maybe not easier per se, but at least it gives you options to change things afterwards.
If, however, you have just the one microphone and no mixer, choose the easy option and forget the complex stuff.

If i need to elaborate on something, please do ask!

[1] if you set up just one instrument track, then it doesn't have to be the active (=last selected) track, but better safe then sorry.

[AHornsby]

Hi,

It's possible. I've tried it to be certain.

3. do not monitor the audio track, so all audio that comes out of Mixcraft while you're recording, is just you playing the VSTi through your keyboard.

I'm trying to understand this better.

You're by-passing the system speakers and inputting the signal directly into an amp, right? -h

[Juno]

You're by-passing the system speakers and inputting the signal directly into an amp, right?

Depends on what you call system speakers, but, yes. That was the short answer. I have other versions. Here goes.

My test setup:

Mixcraft:
created 2 tracks, 1x audio track to record on, 1x instrument track with a VSTi of choice selected.
On sidenote: selected a most horrible VSTi and similar sound because i feel so sad for them
Arm: only the audio track. Selected source (rightclick audio track-->arm recording channel and device): the left channel on my Tascam audio interface, since the mic is plugged into the left IN on that interface.
Monitoring: off for audio track. Instrument track: not armed.

Audio interface, and relevant cabling/settings:
usb to and from pc on my Tascam US-144 MKII audio interface
1x mic in on the same Tascam from the best mic for recording, a Shure SM 58
1x digital OUT from Tascam to pair of Behringer MS-40 near field monitors. They contain the amp. Speakers set to ON on Behringer so that sound can come out.

monitor options:
Depending on the AI that's used, on the way it's all connected and on presence of side equipment. Since monitoring in Mixcraft must be OFF to avoid feedback, your best bet is monitoring from the AI (or mixer).
In my case i didn't use it and for the OP i think it's also not needed, but we'll see. I could (and normally do) use my headphones OUT on the Tascam (which has a wheel to set the amount of dry/wet signal) to plug my Audio-Technica ATH-M50 Monitor Headphones into. #Makesmefeeldirty

Midi keyboard:
1x Novation Impulse 25 with usb to pc. Set to send to all midi channels. Mixcraft track set to receive on all midi channels. Novation keyboard is powered by my pc. Actually a laptop, but it was so ridiculously expensive that it's been outclassing pc's for 4 years (up until last spring, when my pc score went down from the max to 5 and i couldn't understand why Microsoft were after me like that. I guess i need more paranoia, i need to see it coming. )

Actions:
Hit record in Mixcraft. Started screaming at top of lungs in best mic ever, or whatever i felt like annoyed my neighbours the most. I make them happy every day by stopping my screams after an hour or so, so it's all good.
Played along on Novation midi keyboard.
Once harddisk was full, stopped doing it. Police negotiator could finally be understood. I think i'll try again and see if/when they lunge in tear gas nades. Have cam ready. Great viral, my songs could use some gangnam styling since artistically i ain't so sure my songs can pull it off.
But i digress.

What actually happened:
voice send signal to mic
mic send it to AI (audio interface)
from AI it goes 3 ways:

1. to Mixcraft to be processed (=recorded)
2. to head phones, and
3. to digital and line outputs on Tascam.

(I used the digital Out, but both may be used at the same time to run to 2 different amps that both can have speakers/headphones. One of them (or both) can be used for monitoring)

parallel to this:

midi keyboard sends midi to Mixcraft
MC sends it to the VSTi, its Out sends it as audio to MC master out
that goes to the Tascam (USB)
there it's mixed with the vocal

Then they continue together:
both signals (vocals and VSTi audio) are send to digital out on tascam and then to the Behringer
there it comes out as sound
both signals get picked up by best mic ever
and finally are then recorded in Mixcraft.

Obviously i now have my vocals double in a single take. That's probably unwanted (though gates may take care of it). I just wanted to be sure MC could handle it.

So it's better to:

route the best mic ever to a separate mixer (again a Behringer, with a name/number that i just can't read in the hellish light that the flames from the burning curtains cast on my ceiling, but it's small and affordable - i think i paid 50 for it. Can't remember if that was in euro or, back in the day, good old Dutch guilders. One guilder=0.5 euro so i guess i better go back on topic.
So, i plug the best mic ever into that separate mixer's mic input. Behringer actually wrote in the manual that only a certain best mic ever is allowed, but they did it in such a way that most people don't notice it.
I use my Line Out on the Tascam to go to Line In on the mixer. The Main Out goes to the Behringer monitors' Line In, and now i record as should be - for this setup. My vocals will bypass my AI and no more doubles.

Now, it's time to switch off the gas before i loose the house in a pretty explosion, one never knows when the zombies approach so i must feel secure and safe as much of these smoking remains that i can.

[HerbyG]

Thanks for speaking up folks.

"Sami Seif - Why do you need a headphone line out? Can't you just record without one?"
We want to hear the Wurly in the live mix and not simply record the midi data.

"AHornsby - You're gonna need a bigger boat..."
Came to the same conclusion at last nights jam; thinking about getting a dedicated recording computer for the jam space and using the laptop as the VSTi source...

"Juno - It's possible. I've tried it to be certain.
1. set up Mixcraft to record audio as you'd do otherwise
2. set up an instrument track, load your VSTi to it, and set it up to your satisfaction
3. do not monitor the audio track, so all audio that comes out of Mixcraft while you're recording, is just you playing the VSTi through your keyboard..."

That seems to make sense and even if we get a 'puter for the jam space I would still like to do this in my home music room. I totally gapped on the monitor feature. I have never monitored the recordings as we are jamming.
So I just set the Sound Device\Playback Device(output) to my Steinberg, monitor the wurly track and run a cable from my Stienberg line out to my amp and away we go!
I look forward to trying that out at home in the Bassment; seems to open up all kinds of options...maybe I'll put that looper pedal to better use. I better start taking keyboard lessons.
Thanks again for the replies!
I'll let you know how it goes...
Cheers!

*EDIT* didn't see your second post Juno until after I posted this one, thanks for the extra detail! I think I should be able to figure it out!

[Juno]

If not, let us know!

I figured you wouldn't need the monitoring, but it's better to include such a possibility for those who might read along. Although, there aren't many people who'd read through that entire novel just to find out about monitoring a lo-fi setup.

I'm impressed you did.

[Mark Bliss]

selected a most horrible VSTi and similar sound because i feel so sad for them

This is the easy part, with so many horrible examples to feel sad for.

the best mic for recording, a Shure SM 58

I've decided my favorite feature of this ubiquitous favorite is that it simply holds more spit and retains the scent of stale beer better than any other I have.

And for the record, I've always hated those curtains.

[Juno]

Curtains are gone, the flames are extinguished and i can see clearly now. I made a mistake - i should have written out the cabling on paper.

Gotta go to work, but quickly: my final setup with the mixer, to avoid looping vocals, shall record nothing. There's plenty of opportunity for someone else to point out exactly the mistake i made. Otherwise, i'll do it tonight.

-----

To the continued lore about the advantages (exploits) of the SM58 i can add the ability to put it in a mug, add hot water and wait till you smell coffee.

[Mark Bliss]

I didn't read it that close. Pictures. I like pictures.

Yep, mic to mixer, mixer to monitors. Not recorded. Oops. Needs another cable.
I think I got it.

Workday.png (223.52 KiB) Viewed 5610 times

[Juno]

Yeah, Mark is too kind to say it. I have no problem busting my own setup, though! I made 2 mistakes and still all turns out well. True sign of genius

first mistake: double vocals.

I won't make this a long post so i leave out the explanations of how exactly i made the mistake. There are no double vocals if you follow my setup right up until i say:

"Obviously i now have my vocals double in a single take."

Whether i had monitoring actually on, or whether i didn't listen very well, i don't remember why i 'heard' doubles and i didn't save the test project. Sound file should be there but i have no further interest in finding out.
The second mistake is in my setup after that, to avoid doubling. As Mark says: "mic to mixer, mixer to monitors. Not recorded."
That setup bypasses the AI so indeed no sound goes to MC.

But because there are no doubles to begin with, that setup is nullified, so who cares. The OP should be able to do what he wants. And if not, we'll take it from there.

[Mark Bliss]

I just assumed the doubled vocals were due to the new room ambience sans curtains.

[Juno]

I just assumed the doubled vocals were due to the new room ambience sans curtains.

I have new curtains. They're made of reinforced concrete and iron bars. They have a huge sustain!

[HerbyG]

Sorry for the lack of feedback folks, crazy week!
Glad the new curtains are adding nicely to your room sound!
Anyway, finally got to test the setup last night; mixed results, overall not what I'd hoped for...
Set-up to record with the room mic as per usual on track 1. Connected the MIDI keys via USB to control a VSTi track on track 2 and connected the output on the interface to an amp to hear the keys. (Phones out or line out both worked) Test check and we have keys! Arm track one to record and the midi stopped making any sound, the only way I could get it back was to start a new Mixcraft file and reset up the tracks, this time with the VST on track one. Armed both tracks and was now recording the midi input and the room mic (not exactly what I was after but would do and gives the option to edit the midi afterward if desired) Stepped on the sustain pedal for the keys and the midi stopped again. Had to start a new file again to get it back. Came to the conclusion that it was too much through-put for this computer/interface to deal with. Back to the idea of a second computer in the studio for recording or VSTi control and a laptop for the other duty. Put the keys aside and carried on with our normal jam session. Learning a dozen new tunes this week and my brain is pretty full.
I'm thinking maybe a driver issue as well but I've had no luck with anything other than ASIO4All and even with that there are sometimes glitches in the matrix when we are listening back to the recordings (distorted/slow playback and the fix is to change the sound device to the yamaha and back to asio) seems to 'reset' it somehow.
Any ideas as to whether there is a setting I can still manipulate to get this to work? Or is the 2 computer option the one most likely to succeed?
Thanks again for your time and assistance.
Cheers!