Question about EZ drummer

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aquataur
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by aquataur » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:31 am

Mark Bliss wrote:And once again, we have wandered far off the OP's question. Sorry about that...... :lol:
As usual...
But the OP seems happy :D and we can carry on ranting...
Mark Bliss wrote:The features and improvements I have described as desirable for Mixcraft are IMO even more useful for a lot of other things however.
Yes. We can always post them in the wishlist. I have a list of such suggestions too. But sometimes I hesistate to post this stuff because I can imagine the staff´s heads are spinning with all these wishes. What we consider important may be totally unimportant to somebody else and they have to work themselves through all that jungle, and I am sure, they oversee the only wish that was really of importance for me. It looks like one of them fell on fertile ground finally in MX8.

I did BTW buy an aftermarket MIDI package. Those packs are played by pro drummers, real human beings, and they do indeed sound like. Those packs are dramatically cheaper than their expansion packs and work off a basic kit, not a jazzed-up kit.

One thing you cannot do with EZD is to make a random percussion track. You can stray in the odd shaker or handclaps to a regular kit, but you would not be able, even with the latin kit, to add a percussion track to a song. You may try to load another instance of the program (not on 32bit anyways) but you will be out of a suitable MIDI track for this.

This is a pity because they have the multi-layered samples there.
Let me know anybody if you achieved that.

Edit: I should mention that I have tried to enter some polyrithmic african stuff. To make them sound real (so that every beat sounds different to the ear) you have to go to town on the player. I have tried a full blown sample player and it still sounded machine-y. I deciced to go and buy a bell, a few shakers and similar toys. Those instruments are probably even more problematic to MIDI-fy than normal drums.

-helmut

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:25 pm

aquataur wrote:As usual...
But the OP seems happy :D and we can carry on ranting...
And rambling. Good thing, cause were gonna ramble!
aquataur wrote:Yes. We can always post them in the wishlist. I have a list of such suggestions too. But sometimes I hesistate to post this stuff because I can imagine the staff´s heads are spinning with all these wishes. What we consider important may be totally unimportant to somebody else and they have to work themselves through all that jungle, and I am sure, they oversee the only wish that was really of importance for me. It looks like one of them fell on fertile ground finally in MX8.
I wouldn't hesitate to add to the list Helmut.
There are many users and we all have varied interests and needs and I think the more information gathered the better. And you never know what idea may spark a new feature or function.
I think some of our suggestions have had to wait, because some things are far harder to implement than others. There are a few great suggestions that have been floated that may require a re-write of the sound engine program itself for example. This is no little tweak or small added packet of code....... So we have to be patient. If it isn't included yet, it doesn't mean its being ignored.
aquataur wrote:One thing you cannot do with EZD is to make a random percussion track. You can stray in the odd shaker or handclaps to a regular kit, but you would not be able, even with the latin kit, to add a percussion track to a song. You may try to load another instance of the program (not on 32bit anyways) but you will be out of a suitable MIDI track for this.
This is a pity because they have the multi-layered samples there.
Let me know anybody if you achieved that.

Edit: I should mention that I have tried to enter some polyrhythmic african stuff. To make them sound real (so that every beat sounds different to the ear) you have to go to town on the player. I have tried a full blown sample player and it still sounded machine-y. I decided to go and buy a bell, a few shakers and similar toys. Those instruments are probably even more problematic to MIDI-fy than normal drums.
Hmm, good point and question. I'll have to ponder this a bit, as it is an oversight. Maybe some of the other expansion packs offer more, but maybe some of the solution is outside EZD as well.
Its funny that you mention it, as a well respected producer recently mentioned his collection of percussion toys were an important secret weapon in his studio. Of course he was referring to live recording work but still- it made me think about mine, as I have a large collection of various percussion and noise makers, and am working on creating a home made "sample library" of my own, but as you point out, samples is only part of the MIDI puzzle isn't it?

*I have a series of questions I want to ask of any Mixcraft users who have made the switch from EZD1 to 2, but I am going to start a new thread for that. 8)
Stay in tune, Mark

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aquataur
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by aquataur » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:01 pm

percussion on keys.

I recently downloaded a trial version of a sample player. The package is very good priced compared to the quality of the sounds. How come they all sounded like machine-gun, like any old GM Midi file?

The answer is given in mixcraft mini tip 6: using studio drums at 3:51. You can try to fiddle with velocity and timing, but this alone does not make for a real sounding percussion instrument.

In the aforementioned package, they had, for example for a Kangogui bell, six keys reserved, all probably sampled at several different velocities. A sample at lower velocity is not just a volume-downscaled version. Somebody there must go and hammer such a bell thousands of times. None of these instruments are in real life remotely related to a keyed instrument, so you have to know the instrument and its emulation on the keyboard. Too much for me so I abandoned the idea despite the wealth of instruments opening up there.

Without this knowledge or dexterity, this sounds only slightly better than an ancient GM file.

So if you can get a MIDI loop that is recorded by a real human being tailored for the sample player in question, you are home.
If you have to knit your own, trouble starts.

Problem is, the ear is very sensitive towards repeating identical sounds and immediately debunks this as fake.
Circumventing this with manually played samples is hard. Anybody does this? Tell us folks.What do all of you freaks do with all the monstrous sample players of world instruments?

Is seems the answer boils down to three situations:
1) The groove you want is existing (i.e. has been MIDI recorded by some real drummer) > go and get it. Don´t hesistate.
2) The groove you want is not existing, but a virtual instrument exists. You know the instrument and are familiar with the sample player > go and get it.
3) You don´t know the instrument and its grooves and have a hard time with the keyboard > forget it. Maybe you can easily play the real instrument.

For the sake of completion pre-recorded audio loops should be mentioned, but these phase out quickly if they have to be too much stretched or if they do not suit otherwise, which very often will be the case.

In my case, I ended up buying a bell for $25. The instrument itself is easy.
Can I play all the claves, funky thangs African musicians can? No. But no MIDI files have been recorded too, not AFAIK.
But it sounds authentic.
So we are probably back to a few assorted noisemakers with far less buck and superior bang.

You just helped me clear my vision, Mark. :lol:

-helmut

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:36 pm

Yea, I hear you.
I havent found much use for typical sample players for that exact reason, no matter how I try to manipulate them they seem geared toward the over obvious repetition, not so much anything else. Havent really found much use for them personally. Seems they might be great for EDM and such. Maybe the more expensive ones, I dunno. Its not my thing obviously.
And it seems to me, this specific application, where one might want to play realistic percussion, input via keyboard is a real tough test of any method. The samples could be top notch, multi layered and even a great sample player may not make it work anything like desired. As the challenge is increased dramatically by the need to be able to physically play them well as you say.
The market is full of high quality percussion audio loops, but "playing them in" doesnt really work I dont think. Audio loops are more suitable to production editing, but the points you make about using them are quite valid IMO. But on the other hand, that may be where using loops shine best. (Adding layers to a production.)
I'm open to ideas myself.

Audio loops examples:
http://www.thelooploft.com/products/wor ... Hwodh38CPA

http://www.loopmasters.com/genres/2-Afr ... Percussion

http://www.loopmasters.com/products/417-African-Rhythms

http://store.samplephonics.com/products ... percussion

http://www.soundstosample.com/blog/s2s- ... and-sample

http://store.samplephonics.com/products ... chronicles

http://store.samplephonics.com/products ... chronicles

http://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/sa ... ops-238205

ETC ETC ETC. Theres tons.
Stay in tune, Mark

My SOUNDCLOUD Page

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aquataur
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by aquataur » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:44 am

Maybe EDM - they live from recycled music anyway.

For the audio loops - I guess for film work and soundtracks.

Useless for us. let´s drop the issue.

-helmut

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by MeanMrMustard » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:49 am

Concerning the EZ line has anyone worked with EZKeys in M7 ? I've been looking at both EZKeys and EZD but I'm wondering if EZKeys works as well as EZD. Presumably it does, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by fredfish » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:16 am

MeanMrMustard wrote:Concerning the EZ line has anyone worked with EZKeys in M7 ? I've been looking at both EZKeys and EZD but I'm wondering if EZKeys works as well as EZD. Presumably it does, but I haven't been able to confirm that.
EZ Keys works pretty well. I have also used it to create some simple Bass lines. You create a simple piano line using EZKeys, transfer that MIDI to Mixcraft by dragging and dropping into a track in Mixcraft, then copy the Piano line to a new track and edit the MIDI to remove the higher notes. Then just change the Vst on the new track to a Bass guitar Vst (I often use a standard Guitar Vst and drop by one octave).

I am not keen on the sound of the included Piano in EZKeys but it is a simple matter to use any other sounds that you have such as Pianissimo or even VB3 if you want an organ sound.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

John

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by MeanMrMustard » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:10 am

Thanks John....

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by BillW » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:35 pm

So now that I've caught up to the topic of this thread, I have to ask:
Will a future version of Mixcraft be structured to interface a bit better with EZD2 (and Addictive and other popular drum VSTi's)?

In particular - in setting up multichannel output, it's correct that the name MC uses bears no relation to that of EZD2. In fact, not even the channel numbers match (much less calling it snare or reverb or overhead etc.) I don't know how many other DAWs do, but the one used in the DrumAngle tutorials does.

And on that subject, being able to drag a clip from MC to EZD2 would be nice (though I am in fact trying to stop myself from creating beats in MC and do that in EZD2.

Got a long way to go yet.
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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Perennial Jive » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:05 pm

Fxpansion geist 2 is about to be released and the original Geist can now be bought for half the price....i cannot emphasize enough what a fantastic beat machine/sampler/slicer/drum sequencer it is.....would rate it miles above any other drum vst...very easy to use and very versatile no matter what style of music you are into.

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by BillW » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:39 pm

Fxpansion geist 2:

I've not heard of this but will at least check it out. I have a lot invested in EZD2 ($ + time, where value(time) >> value($)), but I will check it out.

Anyone else use this? Thoughts?
Proud member of the Mixcraft OFC!

Mixcraft 8 Pro (32bit) runs fine on a Toshiba Satellite C55-B laptop with a wimpy Celeron N2830 (dual core). Now using 64bit on a "less wimpy" Dell 660S/Dual Core Pentium/8GB RAM.

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Rolling Estonian » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:05 am

Fxpansion is another drum vsti, by most accounts, EZD is the industry standard. Not knocking any other products but what EZD2 has done is truly a game changer.

M

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Perennial Jive » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:52 pm

fxpansion does a range of drum vsts,-i went from using Beatcraft to Geist which was in spired by Guru but there is also BFD which is probably more comparable to EZdrummer and Tremor too,-what i love about Geist is that it has a huge library but that its also very easy to import your own samples and layer them into your own sounds and kits,if rhythm and percussion is a big part of your tracks i heartily recommend checking fxpansion out

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Re: Question about EZ drummer

Post by Rolling Estonian » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:43 pm

Like I said, I'm not knocking, or beating on (hahahaha) any other drum software. I'm not a drummer and really have no desire to become overly proficient at drums, I waste my time on guitars! EZD 2 is way more than I'll need for the foreseeable future, but you never know, I could see the ghost of Buddy Rich and be inspired! lol

I must say though that EZD 2 is really an incredible bit of software. Any drum software where I can make a decent beat is good by me!

M

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