A good gain staging workflow in Mixcraft?

[msnickybee]

Like others I'm sure, I find gain staging hard. The whole digital thing.....and we all have so so much to learn, with this great product too.

Scroll to the end for the questions

So, this is what I tend to do, but would appreciate advice! I see the ProTools etc videos, and see different things. Not having any sign of a "Trim" control challenges me tbh. But there are other things I know I don't know (if you follow me)

So.
Let's take the example of my recorded acoustic, DI for simplicity, recording and editing first.

Roland USB interface, light compression for the peaks only, recorded at maybe -16dB, plenty of headroom, and low noise
Then...maybe I split up the track, to retime some sections manually (Warp and quantize not working well here), and this allows me to (a) mix to new clip Ctrl+W then Normalize Ctrl+K)

Now the mixing. It may go into a SubMix with other guitar parts, so that I can apply a single compressor or limiter and saturation. This will then allow less faders to be on my final Mixer view, and be better performance. This will probably not change the level, as I'll balance the output.
Then into the master bus, where many tracks will enter with plenty of headroom maybe 12dB, and I will then :

Hi/Lo pass
Saturation (eg FAT+, IVGI klanghelm) with a higher output level to drive either 2 compressors, 1 for sound
Or vladg's Limiter No 6
Or Frontier limiter
Then possibly a final shelving EQ such as TDR slickEQ
Adjusting the FAT+ output to drive the compressor differently, and finally the output of the final limiter and viewing Voxengo SPAN for a -0.5dB ish level and no clipping.

My questions then (you knew they were here somewhere eh? And I wasn't just waffling? lol)

- am I missing anything, anything valuable in Mixcraft, or, do any of you folks swear by VU metering as you go?

Thanks kids!

[AHornsby]

As a beginner with Mixcraft I suppose it's just that i don't see things like you but perhaps in the future... who knows?

Right now I see each music piece as I do individuals and as I meet one, I try to infer the essential part(s) knowing that I may never see or be able to greet them again.

For instance, I met this -- deaf in both ears -- 15 year old young woman last week. I would have never guessed that she could carry notes so well using just her implant -- and the theatre's sound system, I suppose. ( I won't divulge her name as she is a minor but I can provide a snippet of the performance. )

All that though to relate this.

You can have a room full of roses but nobody else can arrange them like you.

A sample of her (sans vocoder), acapella vocal:

-h



.

[mick]

Deaf in both ears at 15? She just put some neon lights pop starts to shame for singing in tune.

[msnickybee]

Amazing story!!! You've just humbled me, talking about all these bells and whistles and techniques doesn't mean anything, and she has raw talent, thank you for sharing!!!

I....hope that music production (and I try a little of that) can maximise such talent, with the minimum of polish required - after all, she needs no Autotune!

[aj113]

... (a) mix to new clip Ctrl+W then Normalize Ctrl+K)

Don't normalize. You will run out of headroom and you also run the risk of overloading some plugins.

... with a higher output level to drive either 2 compressors, 1 for sound

Again, don't do it. Adjust the threshold on your compressors instead.

Then possibly a final shelving EQ such as TDR slickEQ

EQ before compression. If you put it after compression you are negating the effect of the compressor.

Adjusting the FAT+ output to drive the compressor differently, and finally the output of the final limiter and viewing Voxengo SPAN for a -0.5dB ish level and no clipping.

Way too high. It may not clip with one track but it almost certainly will with multiple tracks. -20db bass, -30db kick, and nothing over -20db in SPAN on the master 2-bus.

Keep your master fader at 0db

Do you have any processing on the master two-bus? At your current levels I will be surprised if you're not overdriving them to distortion.

[msnickybee]

... (a) mix to new clip Ctrl+W then Normalize Ctrl+K)

Don't normalize. You will run out of headroom and you also run the risk of overloading some plugins.

I only seem to do this on some clips, to get a good height waveform to automate levels against, I just think comping many narrow/hard to see tracks/takes can be hard (and I have a 32" monitor...)

Then possibly a final shelving EQ such as TDR slickEQ

EQ before compression. If you put it after compression you are negating the effect of the compressor.

I guess there a few schools of thought on this one, and in this case I didn't want to change how the compressor acted, but just some final tweaks and shine afterwards, Sound on Sound nails it here

Adjusting the FAT+ output to drive the compressor differently, and finally the output of the final limiter and viewing Voxengo SPAN for a -0.5dB ish level and no clipping.

Way too high. It may not clip with one track but it almost certainly will with multiple tracks. -20db bass, -30db kick, and nothing over -20db in SPAN on the master 2-bus.

Hmmm. I don't understand, I'm coming *in* at between -16 to -20 on the master bus, but then mastering out at -0.5, definitely no distortion

Keep your master fader at 0db

I have always done this.

Do you have any processing on the master two-bus? At your current levels I will be surprised if you're not overdriving them to distortion.

Yes, I do. And I realise folks go either way on this, because it feels like "Mastering", without separating that out into a separate tool or project. I often mix into a compressor, after getting a good mix, and then master with VSTs on the stereo bus. I suspect I'm not the only one, but, it certainly isn't a purist approach.

Thanks aj, appreciate the help!

[aj113]

...I only seem to do this on some clips, to get a good height waveform to automate levels against, I just think comping many narrow/hard to see tracks/takes can be hard (and I have a 32" monitor...)

You are correct, and this is a failing of MC. Users should be able to adjust the waveform without adjusting the level. Nevertheless, this is not reason enough to normalize to 0db i.e. just so that you can see the waveform, that is very poor form, and will cause you headaches later. De-normalize after you have finished editing.

I don't understand, I'm coming *in* at between -16 to -20 on the master bus, but then mastering out at -0.5, definitely no distortion.

What's the point in recording at -16db if you're going to boost to -0.5db? If I have understood you correctly, you are adjusting each track's output to -0.5db. If you have multiple tracks all outputting at 0.5db then overloading the master bus summariser is inevitable.

[msnickybee]

If I have understood you correctly, you are adjusting each track's output to -0.5db. If you have multiple tracks all outputting at 0.5db then overloading the master bus summariser is inevitable.

No, I am not adjusting each track's output to -0.5dB. Nothing is hitting the master at that level in any of my projects, and I would never consider that.

I think this is the problem when we try and do mixing and mastering in the same tool, and it's hard to write it down into a forum post.

I guess I've followed this over the years (quoted from another forum somewhere or other)

Q:
How high should I set master volume?
A:
- Record at 24-bit.
- Leave it at 0.0dB.
- Peak your MIX version (not your MASTER version) to around -15dBFS.
- Raise your hardware monitor's volume dial about 15dB to make up for the quieter mix.
Congratulations! Your transients have been preserved!

Although I struggle with the *recording* at 24 bit, and being 100% sure of the fidelity of all the other components in my mix (often Mixcraft .ogg samples for example), and being sure (32 float aside) that I'm getting the value out of mixing at that level.
I debated this 3 years ago in this same forum here, and didn't really conclude it myself, although for the music I listen to personally (eg Macca, John Mayer, Peter Gabriel) I'm VERY convinced of the value ie from their more high-end environments of that as an output format. However, I digress of course, because what we're talking about here is an input & mixing bit depth and headroom blah blah

So, despite evidence to the contrary I stubbornly stick to 16/44 recording, mixing, and FLAC mastering
('cause I'm awkward like that, and just can't be bothered anymore with it, and I need a better interface than my Roland, I have had Focusrite in the past and found it worse, and can't find so much between the $150/£100 and $500/£400 price points that would then make 24 bit recording and monitoring worthwhile... I just record with a tiny bit of compression catching the peaks at source and the noise floor doesn't bother me so much, I have other things to worry about)