Recording sequence

[geobee]

Hi all, as I play several instruments, I like to record in real time rather than program them in. My issue is which method of order do most of you in the forum use, as in, lay down a guitar rhythm track first, then drum to that or whichever. My problem is, I like to have a drum track to play guitar to, and vice versa. Would most people just lay down the rhythm along with a click track, or use a drum machine, or drum loop to follow, then discard it later when laying down your own real time drum track. I use an electronic kit, but midi it to an Alesis SR18 as I find the Alesis drum sounds are much better than the kit. I guess there would be different ideas on this, but any suggestions would be well received. Many thanks. Geoff

[chibear]

This is anient history, but more often than not we arrived at the studio and played to the finished drums and bass. At that time everthing was done to a click so that was also fed into our phones along with the existing tracks.

[Mark Bliss]

Always record the kazoo first. Its a strict rule.

[chibear]

Always record the kazoo first. Its a strict rule.

the image of the oboe taking the tuning A from the kazoo

[Mark Bliss]

Second hard rule. Tune everything to the Kazoo.
The Bb for the trumpets is perfect.

[Mab098157]

GEOBEE
I have used several different approaches depending on the "idea".
Sometimes it's just a riff or chord progression I've been working on.
In these cases I have taken a drum loop to set the groove - expanded it out for several minutes and then lay down the gtr parts (chorus, bridge, verse). Pieced those in the order I want, leave that as my scratch rhythm and start adding final tracks.

Other times it has been a fully fleshed out gtr/vox.
I these cases I will either take a loop or just a click track (kick on the beat) and lay down gtr/vox together as separate tracks for my scratch tracks. Then start adding final tracks.

There's several ways to "skin a cat", you'll need to find the one that works for you for that moment.

[Mark Bliss]

Exactly. If there ever was a case of "no right/wrong way"......

For me, the key would be to do whatever it takes to capture the "spark" or idea and work from there, whether its playing along with a click, temporary drums, building drums first, strumming a guitar first, singing a demo to a temporary guide track, etc, etc, whatever works for you. There's potentially about as many ways as there are people trying to create I think.

Personally, I feel the need to have an idea and develop a plan.

How some people can build the parts of a song, have a melody and structure THEN write lyrics, totally baffles me. Honestly, I rarely see people develop songs of quality that way, yet there's people who can.
Sometimes words come to me from an existing melody, but its often just silly and lacking.
More often than not, I would think the lyric, hook or phrase would be the first idea, then one could develop a melody, then flesh out more lyrics and the song structure to fit.

But whatever you do, it can be viewed as temporary. Everything can be revisited and changed.

And the one truth that seems constant- the best recordings will always be the result of the best performance. You will never mix or produce a great song from a mediocre performance. At best, the resulting song will match the performances feeling, spirit and emotion. If its not delivered before the mic or via the instrument, there's no possibility of the listener ever feeling it, ya know?

Now quite obsessing over your pitch and sing it like you mean it. (Once more, with feeling.)

[msnickybee]

How some people can build the parts of a song, have a melody and structure THEN write lyrics, totally baffles me

*I* do this lol!

Honestly, I rarely see people develop songs of quality that way

well, 99% of my songs are rubbish, 'tis true (you know this Mark!!!)

More often than not, I would think the lyric, hook or phrase would be the first idea, then one could develop a melody, then flesh out more lyrics and the song structure to fit.

I kinda do an iteration of this one in reality. Play a line on the guitar, tweak, have a song title/idea in mind, write lyrics to fit it, pick up the plectrum play a bit more, type or write a bit more, tweak, iterate....

But often these days, I write from rhythm first. Paul Simon does this apparently. I can see that. But increasingly I try to focus a song on having a good chorus, as I've written too many verse/bridge/verse/bridge kind of songs.
Having a rhythm first, and a click track/basic drum pattern is useful of course. I mean, take "Blackbird" from the Beatles white album. Recorded with a metronome. It makes subsequent things far easier of course, but I also try to remember that real, organic music doesn't keep strict time like we do in digital-land......
And then there's the Elton John model of course, with a fairly strict separation between music and lyrics....

[aj113]

...How some people can build the parts of a song, have a melody and structure THEN write lyrics, totally baffles me...

Because the lyrics are the least important, so they come last.

[Mark Bliss]

How some people can build the parts of a song, have a melody and structure THEN write lyrics, totally baffles me

*I* do this lol!

Not exactly Nicky. I meant that I see peoples pet projects evolve from a riff, to a set of verses, choruses and sometimes even intro/outro content, ending up with an instrumental essentially, then they say "Now I just have to write the lyrics."
Just seems backwards to me, to try to create the meter and feel of a decent lyric into an existing melody and structure. But some people can do it, and that's what baffles me!
I watched with curiosity and interest as your current project developed from its genesis in hopes of learning something about how others work. What I saw was I think a composite. There was a riff, and a lyric idea, and they both got tweaked to fit together.
This method I understand.

Honestly, I rarely see people develop songs of quality that way

well, 99% of my songs are rubbish, 'tis true (you know this Mark!!!)

I think you are modest and underestimate yourself. Don't try to change that!
While you may not be Woody Guthrie, Hank Williams, or (insert a favorite songwriting troubadour here) with your ear, creativity, interest in learning and your determination you could become very good. Just don't fly too high and burn out on us!

[aj113]

..I meant that I see peoples pet projects evolve from a riff, to a set of verses, choruses and sometimes even intro/outro content, ending up with an instrumental essentially, then they say "Now I just have to write the lyrics."
Just seems backwards to me, to try to create the meter and feel of a decent lyric into an existing melody and structure. But some people can do it, and that's what baffles me!

They may not be working in the way you think they are. I don't have an 'instrumental' when I've finished recording, I have an accompaniment for a vocal melody. I know basically how the melody will go, so the accompaniment has been written and recorded with that in mind, because - whether you like it or not - vocal melody carries much more weight than lyrics, so it gets the most attention in the recording process. It's much easier to write lyrics than it is to write an original melody of quality, so matching lyrics to a melody as opposed to forcing a melody to fit around lyrics is the most sensible way to go.

[msnickybee]

insert a favorite songwriting troubadour here...with your ear, creativity, interest in learning and your determination you could become very good. Just don't fly too high and burn out on us!

Suzanne Vega!!!

Don't worry about flying too high, I don't like the sun & am afraid of heights...
thanks!!

[Rolling Estonian]

You can file this under the FWIW file.

As a relative newbie when it comes to all things recording, I write my songs usually beginning with a basic guitar or piano lick. If I think I can make a tune out of it, I'll record it, set tempo and find a basic drum beat that I like and work from there. Usually things just kind of fall into place, whether it's a bass line, ideas for lyrics and vocals, verse, chorus etc........ I have no tried and true methods but it usually works out that way, sort of like an idea that just keeps rolling.......

@msnickybee: Your stuff is good! And I like the fact that you feel as though you can improve on things, that's the attitude that keeps me going, it can never be perfect but if I set some standards, I can't fail so bad! lol

M