New to Mixcraft Help an old guy out

[outteh]

Let us hear what you come up with!

[Mark Bliss]

Color me skeptical, no offense, but, it seems as I age, memory, and learning in general, don't come as easily as they once did. I'm not an imbecile by any means, yet

Ah nonsense. Anyone of any age who can learn to fly a drone without destroying it or everything around, edit video clips into a presentation and create basic tunes from loops in Mixcraft, can learn three chords and count to 4. Trust me, a little study and effort and you'll surprise yourself in no time at all.

And just consider those early "embarrassing" efforts lessons. Nobody creates a brilliant symphony the first tries.

[Brewsir]

Let us hear what you come up with!

I don't have, (nor need) sound cloud, so how do I give you a listen?

[outteh]

Makes it kind of difficult to share without some social media forum. Facebook, Dropbox, You Tube and other outlets are available, many free with usually a size limitation. Several other folks may offer some other channels!

[Brewsir]

Obviously this isn't Blues, but, I thought it would be a good idea for you to see where I am. Get some tips on Mixer and effects. Feel free to critique the song, except for the solo at the midway point, I'm proud of that

https://youtu.be/jTQckSpcjQ4

[Mark Bliss]

Well, as far as structure, it is a blues in essence! Or close enough.
And as far as critique, for the intended purpose it is better than many I have heard. Its a great start!
There's a couple of slightly disjointed breaks in the structure and pattern, but its not bad. And it works!
Good montage of video clips, and an interesting audio track. What a great beginning to your journey!

[outteh]

Great work, nice mix! I assume some of the guitar playing is you and not just loops? At this stage of the game having fun and exploring are the keys. I enjoyed it!

[Brewsir]

Well, as far as structure, it is a blues in essence! Or close enough.
And as far as critique, for the intended purpose it is better than many I have heard. Its a great start!
There's a couple of slightly disjointed breaks in the structure and pattern, but its not bad. And it works!
Good montage of video clips, and an interesting audio track. What a great beginning to your journey!

I noticed the disjoint, and left it because 1, I find that I often mess up what I like about a song when I "fix" it and 2, I thought with the thousands of similar songs that must exist, maybe it wouldn't hurt to have a bit of a quirk. Being different for different sake, maybe a mistake, but, I'm trying as for the video, that was just me taking a few quick screen shots, because my ocd wouldn't allow me to post a blank video.

Aside from the disjoint, which I agree with, the mix itself, effects, anything overdone? I noticed an odd effect on the cymbals, but it was far enough in the background to not be a problem. Another thing about that song was whether to use the clean, dirty, or both. I chose both, though soundwise, I'd rather have done one or the other. My problem with that was figuring out how to not make it overly repetitive. So I felt like it was the lesser of 2 evils.

Which brings me to another question. I would imagine there would be easy to find drum, bass, and maybe rhythm loops from outside a song kit that might work. What about lead type parts? Seems like it would be way more miss than hit?

[Brewsir]

Great work, nice mix! I assume some of the guitar playing is you and not just loops? At this stage of the game having fun and exploring are the keys. I enjoyed it!

Thanks for the encouragement. Unfortunately none of the guitar, is me. I am having fun though.

[Mark Bliss]

Unfortunately none of the guitar, is me. I am having fun though.

Yeah, I think I recognize some of those guitar loops....

https://soundcloud.com/mbliss01/nuthin-fancy-mark-bliss

Which brings me to another question. I would imagine there would be easy to find drum, bass, and maybe rhythm loops from outside a song kit that might work. What about lead type parts? Seems like it would be way more miss than hit?

Yeah, pretty much. You will probably find that on very simple songs, more stuff is likely to fit together, but melody/lead parts get harder to fit in as the complexity of the song pattern increases. Sometimes you can chop and slice or pitch shift etc, but you quickly discover the limitations of loops for the intended style you seek. IMO.

Aside from the disjoint, which I agree with, the mix itself, effects, anything overdone? I noticed an odd effect on the cymbals, but it was far enough in the background to not be a problem. Another thing about that song was whether to use the clean, dirty, or both. I chose both, though soundwise, I'd rather have done one or the other. My problem with that was figuring out how to not make it overly repetitive. So I felt like it was the lesser of 2 evils.

I would say your experiment with heavy panning worked out pretty well, enough so as to distract from some other minor details perhaps.

But here's some things to consider.

First: it seems to be mixed down at far to high of a level. I believe the file is clipping pretty heavily. Go back to the project and play it, and watch the main bus meter. Red is a no go. (I suggest opening the mixer view and undocking it, make it full screen and watch the main meter, as it has more details.) Or next thing to begin learning, insert the Span plug in on the main bus and check the peak analysis of the file after it has played through.
I am betting you have serious overs. First lesson, turn those tracks down. I think we've all been there!
Its a common early learning curve issue, because loops are presented loud to make them more attractive. More often than not, just put two of them in a project and you are exceeding maximum levels.
For smaller projects like what you are learning on, try starting out with turning the track levels down about 10 -12- dB as you import loops.

Next thing after sorting the Project levels:
Keep in mind, loops are generally already processed with effects and such, (often heavily) and often adding much more is unnecessary or detrimental. I would suggest keeping anything you do rather lightly applied when working with loops.
I would re-evaluate after addressing the above, and reconsider from there. It sounds to me like you have got some possibly somewhat harsh and boxy results from adding some EQ and compression that you may want to reconsider. Again, I could be wrong, hard to say until after getting the main bus level peaks below 0 dB.

The first things about mixing to learn and learn well. Relative levels (track to track, instrument to instrument, moment to moment.)

Go back and read that sentence again.
One more time.
Memorize it.

Next EQ. Nothing else is necessary until you have those two things pretty well sorted out.
Another hint, most people find that learning to EQ tracks is a lot easier to learn if you save the panning for later. Mixing in mono makes it far easier to fit instruments together in your soundscape with EQ. You'll get there.

Which brings us to the next important mentionable about working with loops.
Many are presented as stereo tracks. This may sound really nice when you audition them in solo, but.......

Many of those "stereo" tracks are created in a way that can cause phasing issues. You may not know what that is really yet, but you will.
In short what sometimes happens, (No need to ask how I know... right?) is that they sound really nice all alone as a solo track. Even as you begin mixing with other instruments. But at some point some odd washed out fuzziness begins to creep into the mix you just cant seem to track down. It can drive you nuts.
Explanation: Some of those pretty sounding "stereo" tracks are really just a pair of duplicate tracks, processed with a delay or slight time shift to create a "pseudo" stereo that can cause all kinds of phase and comb filter issues. You'll learn about that down the road, just be forewarned.

Just guessing.

[Brewsir]

First: it seems to be mixed down at far to high of a level. I believe the file is clipping pretty heavily. Go back to the project and play it, and watch the main bus meter. Red is a no go. (I suggest opening the mixer view and undocking it, make it full screen and watch the main meter, as it has more details.) Or next thing to begin learning, insert the Span plug in on the main bus and check the peak analysis of the file after it has played through.
I am betting you have serious overs. First lesson, turn those tracks down. I think we've all been there!
Its a common early learning curve issue, because loops are presented loud to make them more attractive. More often than not, just put two of them in a project and you are exceeding maximum levels.
For smaller projects like what you are learning on, try starting out with turning the track levels down about 10 -12- dB as you import loops.

First thing I do when I open Mixcraft, is undock, and place on my second monitor.

Next thing after sorting the Project levels:
Keep in mind, loops are generally already processed with effects and such, (often heavily) and often adding much more is unnecessary or detrimental. I would suggest keeping anything you do rather lightly applied when working with loops.
I would re-evaluate after addressing the above, and reconsider from there. It sounds to me like you have got some possibly somewhat harsh and boxy results from adding some EQ and compression that you may want to reconsider. Again, I could be wrong, hard to say until after getting the main bus level peaks below 0 dB.

You are correct. Some of these plug ins and, gizmos, and fancy knobs, I would say I did use too much. Always keep out of the red, I did notice sometimes when adding effects, I had to turn the corresponding slider way down, and I mean wayyyy down, especially if I added effects to the Bass track. If I don't add an effect to a track, the slider is usually somewhere around the 6- to 9-(in the green), I've had bass tracks where I had to drop the slider to somewhere in the 20- 30- range That's pretty much why I decided to get some tips on the use of the mixer and effects, because I knew it had to be no bueno. Then, I had a different song, where after adding effects to the bass track, it just had too much boom, and no matter where I placed the slider, it just didn't sound right. That's why I specifically asked for mixer/effects tips.(I knew I was up to no good) I can tell a good number of instuments in the loops already have some effects out of the library, and figured putting more on top was a no-no, but, I want to use effects to be able to distinguish a bit. (There's that being different, for difference sake, again)

The first things about mixing to learn and learn well. Relative levels (track to track, instrument to instrument, moment to moment.)

Go back and read that sentence again.
One more time.
Memorize it.

Whoosh, right over my head. I have to really understand it, otherwise memorizing it, doesn't help. I understand-ish

Next EQ. Nothing else is necessary until you have those two things pretty well sorted out.
Another hint, most people find that learning to EQ tracks is a lot easier to learn if you save the panning for later. Mixing in mono makes it far easier to fit instruments together in your soundscape with EQ. You'll get there.

The pans I did, were at the very beginning of song construction, each one done all the way. I think I did that mainly as a distraction from the simplicity. As I said, my brain loves Rock, but, the simplicity of it makes my brain lock up

Which brings us to the next important mentionable about working with loops.
Many are presented as stereo tracks. This may sound really nice when you audition them in solo, but.......

Many of those "stereo" tracks are created in a way that can cause phasing issues. You may not know what that is really yet, but you will.
In short what sometimes happens, (No need to ask how I know... right?) is that they sound really nice all alone as a solo track. Even as you begin mixing with other instruments. But at some point some odd washed out fuzziness begins to creep into the mix you just cant seem to track down. It can drive you nuts.
Explanation: Some of those pretty sounding "stereo" tracks are really just a pair of duplicate tracks, processed with a delay or slight time shift to create a "pseudo" stereo that can cause all kinds of phase and comb filter issues. You'll learn about that down the road, just be forewarned.

Just guessing.

Thanks so much, I'm going back to the song, and changing all loops to mono, then I'm going to clear all added effects, and add fewer, and much more subtle effects.

[Brewsir]

er, actually, is making the loops mono possible? I've looked around, and perused the help file, can't find anything about changing a loop from stereo to mono.

[Brewsir]

Ok, one of my "unfixed" songs. Stripped it of effects, and adjusted sliders down. Better?

https://youtu.be/JjKx0OFoU7I

[Mark Bliss]

Someone was worried about age related attention span issues? Harry! He's got two monitors and the track view on one and the mixer view on the other. I think the old mans doing fine!

Ok, even with that, we are spreading out the subject a bit, maybe for clarity sake we will have to take some things in steps. (and the forum software limits me to three images per post anyway. )

I think you are on the right track. Making ALL the tracks mono may seem rash, what I really meant to do was make you aware of the potential phase problems and present the idea that it can help with mixing. Not all tracks are a problem, and its worth noting that some tracks are really stereo recordings, some not. Even if expressed visually as a dual waveform, it can be mono. Isnt this tricky.

Lets start with a little exercise to clearly display some of what I am saying.
Open up a fresh project, go to the loop library and find the acoustic guitar track shown and import it into an audio track.
Leave the track fader at unity for the moment. And the main fader as well, (and that's where we want it to stay for now.)

visit the library.png (74.99 KiB) Viewed 5809 times

I don't mean to pick on the library, or the producer of this content, but whoa, this ones a doozy!

First thing, insert Span on the main bus and play the loop-

Spanalyse.png (625.82 KiB) Viewed 5809 times

Holy crap, the thing is nearly clipping all by itself. That suckers loud! You certainly have no room to add another track.

Now you want to see a disaster in the making. Pan it hard to one side and play it again and see what the peaks do. Uh-huh. Oops.
(Simplified explanation: Pan law turns one side up as you pan to compensate for the lowering of the other side.)

OK, I turned the track fader down about 12 dB to start with.

Next problem. That phasey stereo thing. I cant speak for how the producer arrived at this sound but..... It causes problems in the mix. And lets think about this, even as a non guitarist. You ever see a stereo acoustic guitar? I collect odd instruments and have yet to see one. Its an overused production trick IMO and it gives me a headache.

Lets choose sides.
(Right click on the track in the area shown and select properties/channels/and right or left. I tried both, chose right.)

Choose a side.png (112.29 KiB) Viewed 5809 times

More to come, but for now, lets keep the main fader at unity and watch the main meter/level. Mix your tracks with an eye on keeping the main bus level at a conservative level for now. I'd suggest peaking at -10 is fine. -6 maximum for now. We'll revisit that later....... Oh, and don't mind the track meters. you can ignore them even if they go into the red for now. You aren't recording so for now, pretty much just ignore them for now. Use your ears, set your track levels and watch the main level.
I'll be back, time to get to work here.

[Brewsir]

Was unaware of the pan law. Are you saying that if you have some tracks panned, even if you compensate with the slider, it's still a problem? That might explain why that bass I had, never quite fit the song, no matter where I put the slider? Well, actually, it would be the extra effects on the bass part. Is it like, the gain, is way too high, causing distortion, even though through adjustment of the slider, it doesn't "appear", to be clipping, and it's actually having the effect of clipping, even though it may not be as pronounced? Ok, I'm just talking nonsense now, I'll see what you have to say.