latency correction?

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jmpld
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latency correction?

Post by jmpld » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:06 pm

Hi. I don't understand why my overdubbed guitar track is getting recorded late (by the amount of the latency selected in Settings, I think). This occurs even in a very simple test case with nothing but a single guitar track with no effects -- the track does not get recorded in synch with the MX metronome.

I thought latency was only a problem with software monitoring or playing virtual instruments "live".

I thought DAWs have this thing called "latency correction" or "latency compensation" whereby the DAW's degree of latency doesn't matter for overdubbing tracks since the DAW knows its latency and calculates accordingly to put your overdubbed playing in the right place. Is Mixcraft not doing this? What am I missing here? Please clue me in.

ps - On further testing I notice the delay is more extreme when the track is armed to record "left" (which is how I do all my recording) rather than "stereo". You can see this in the attached screen shot.
MX sync problem.GIF
MX sync problem.GIF (174.2 KiB) Viewed 5164 times
I've set the latency deliberately way high for testing purposes.
MX 8 sound device settings.GIF
MX 8 sound device settings.GIF (70.19 KiB) Viewed 5164 times
Thank You,
j

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Ian Craig
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Ian Craig » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 am

Try it with a latency of 20 ms, then see if it's working better. Also whatever audio interface you use should be set to have the same latency (which would be found in whatever control panel it has)
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Rolling Estonian
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Rolling Estonian » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:15 am

What I/O are you using? In most circumstances ASIO the way to go.

M

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Acoustica Greg » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:14 am

Hi,

Latency is mostly determined by your sound device. Mixcraft has to wait for your sound device to process the audio and send it to Mixcraft. Mixcraft does have delay compensation, but that's mostly dealing with having effects on tracks and keeping everything in sync. Each effect can also take a bit of time to process the audio, and delay compensation keeps the tracks playing together, despite varying amounts of latency due to the various effects on the tracks.

The best solution is to have a low-latency audio interface that provides it's own ASIO drivers, like a 2nd gen Focusrite 2i2 or something. USB microphones don't generally come with ASIO drivers.

You do have "Exclusive Mode" selected, which helps provide lower latency by taking exclusive control of our sound card (and not sharing it with other programs that might eat up audio processing time), but you've got your latency setting way too high. Try latency setting of 5 ms or so. If you get audio skipping, increase the latency setting. You need to find the sweet spot between smooth playback and a short delay.

Also, a sample rate of 32000 Hz is probably not what you want. Choose 44100 Hz instead, for best compatibility with most plugins.

Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by aj113 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:23 am

In my opinion, this is not a latency issue. Latency is about how late you hear the instrument you are recording coming back to you in real time. As far as I know, latency is not responsible for out-of-synch recording.

I get this with my own recording device, a Tascam M164 UF. If I close down MC and reboot the Tascam, all is well again.

I used to have a Lexicon Alpha, MC recorded late all the time with it, but I could actually hear the guitar with virtually no latency.

I think it's some kind of ASIO irregularity.

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Acoustica Greg » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:30 am

aj113 wrote:In my opinion, this is not a latency issue. Latency is about how late you hear the instrument you are recording coming back to you in real time. As far as I know, latency is not responsible for out-of-synch recording.

I get this with my own recording device, a Tascam M164 UF. If I close down MC and reboot the Tascam, all is well again.

I used to have a Lexicon Alpha, MC recorded late all the time with it, but I could actually hear the guitar with virtually no latency.

I think it's some kind of ASIO irregularity.
According to the screenshot, it's WaveRT with a sample rate of 32000 Hz and a latency setting of 200, hence my recommendations.
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Re: latency correction?

Post by aj113 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:39 am

OK so maybe not an ASIO thing, but I still don't think that latency is responsible for late recording.

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Acoustica Greg » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:44 am

aj113 wrote:OK so maybe not an ASIO thing, but I still don't think that latency is responsible for late recording.
Maybe not, but trying a latency setting closer to 20 than 200 would be a good troubleshooting step.
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jmpld
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Re: latency correction?

Post by jmpld » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:14 pm

Acoustica Greg wrote:
aj113 wrote:OK so maybe not an ASIO thing, but I still don't think that latency is responsible for late recording.
Maybe not, but trying a latency setting closer to 20 than 200 would be a good troubleshooting step.
Guys, the delay on my recorded track is directly proportion to the "latency" setting I specify in MX's sound device settings. So, yes, it's the latency.

My point/question is/was: WHY SHOULD THAT SETTING CAUSE AN OVERDUBBED TRACK TO BE DELAYED NO MATTER HOW HIGH IT'S SET WHEN A DAW SHOULD BE CORRECTING FOR WHAT IT KNOWS ITS LATENCY IS!? WHY SHOULD THAT LATENCY SETTING CAUSE ANY DELAY OF AN OVERDUBBED SOUND AT ALL??? (We are not talking about real-time software monitoring here.)

On this page: http://www.benvesco.com/blog/the-digita ... 8/latency/ see this paragraph:

"The DAW can correct for your latency just as well at 7ms as it can at 700ms. You should never notice the difference in your recorded tracks. The only thing you might notice at extremely high latency settings is a general feeling of sluggishness in the controls of your DAW. This should not concern you. It doesn’t matter if your song doesn’t start playing until a quarter second after you hit play."

and this...

"There will always be latency. Computer programmers know this and they build this knowledge into their software. It is a small matter for your home studio DAW to do a bit of math and correct all the wrongs latency introduces."

and ...

" All pro level software for the home studio does this automatically for you. I can’t think of a single DAW package I’ve used that does not do this for you."

So what's going on with latency in MX? Does the guy I'm quoting not know what he's talking about? Enlighten me please.
Last edited by jmpld on Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: latency correction?

Post by aj113 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:45 pm

jmpld wrote:...So, yes, it's the latency.
No, that just means the delay in recording is directly related to the latency setting. It doesn't necessarily mean that the latency itself itself is the issue. Indeed, as you say, the DAW should be compensating so that the recording is in synch regardless.

jmpld
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Re: latency correction?

Post by jmpld » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:55 pm

aj113 wrote:
jmpld wrote:...So, yes, it's the latency.
No, that just means the delay in recording is directly related to the latency setting. It doesn't necessarily mean that the latency itself itself is the issue. Indeed, as you say, the DAW should be compensating so that the recording is in synch regardless.
Yes, thx aj. I've edited my last post -- see above -- to include quotes (blue font) describing the correction which I understand ought to be occurring in MX to compensate for the latency setting.

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Acoustica Greg » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:57 pm

Hi,

If you have your latency setting set to 200 ms, there will be a 1/5 second delay between when a sound enters your computer and when you hear it with any DAW.

Does reducing your latency setting help with the problem?

Greg
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jmpld
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Re: latency correction?

Post by jmpld » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:18 pm

Acoustica Greg wrote:Hi,

If you have your latency setting set to 200 ms, there will be a 1/5 second delay between when a sound enters your computer and when you hear it with any DAW.

Does reducing your latency setting help with the problem?

Greg
Thx, Greg, of course reducing the latency setting helps since the lateness of the overdub is proportional to that setting. As I said originally, I only had it way up to 200 in order to test MX's latency compensation. I did this because I was getting audible delay at 20 ms (the MX default, I think) and started wondering what was going on. I hear 20 ms delay easily; it sounds as if I strike the guitar chord just a little late. I have now got it set at 5 ms. and that seems workable. Still, it bothers me that the latency correction described in my above post (with the blue font) does not seems to be happening in MX, and I would like to understand this issue. Could you please see that above posting and respond to that description of latency correction and how it should render latency a non-issue for the purpose of overdubbing tracks? Thanks!

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Acoustica Greg
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Re: latency correction?

Post by Acoustica Greg » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:27 pm

Hi,

Not sure what that guy is talking about, because if the latency is 1/5 of a second, that means it takes 1/5 of a second for you to hear the sound after you press the piano key. This would be true with any DAW. This would make it more difficult to stay on the beat with any DAW. That's why everybody wants low latency and why getting a low latency sound device is desirable.

Greg
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jmpld
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Re: latency correction?

Post by jmpld » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Acoustica Greg wrote:Hi,

Not sure what that guy is talking about, because if the latency is 1/5 of a second, that means it takes 1/5 of a second for you to hear the sound after you press the piano key. This would be true with any DAW. This would make it more difficult to stay on the beat with any DAW. That's why everybody wants low latency and why getting a low latency sound device is desirable.

Greg
I'm not talking about hearing the sound after I press a piano key! There, I understand why the latency would cause you to hear the note delayed just as you describe.

I'm overdubbing guitar and NOT monitoring through the computer; monitoring while I play is not the issue.

If a DAW knows it takes 1/5 second (or whatever I set the latency to) for me to hear playback and another 1/5 sec (or whatever) to receive my guitar note, it should know exactly where the guitar note belongs regardless of my latency setting. So latency would only matter for real-time monitoring or playing. For overdubbing I shouldn't have to be bothered by it. Why does MX not make that adjustment? I don't get it.
Thanks!
j

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