volume boost?

[rrichard63]

Thanks, Greg. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure this can't affect stereo versions of plugins. The only reason I can think of to use mono versions in the first place is to save CPU cycles. That could be significant in large projects.

[Frantiac]

It's been a while - any news?

[Acoustica Greg]

It's been a while - any news?

Did you try it with build 413?

[Frantiac]

Yes and I'm afraid it's still the same. Using Waves GTR3 the mono and mono/stereo instances are quite a bit louder than the stereo version, which sounds as it should. Hard to tell exactly how much louder without proper metering but, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, it looks about 6dB.

[Acoustica Greg]

Hi,

Okay, thanks. No, no update. I updated the bug report with the information that it still happens in build 413.

Greg

[Frantiac]

I don't know if it's relevant but I've done a bit more testing with Dead Duck's SigGen plugin, set to white noise, on a channel's first effects slot followed by the Mono and then the Stereo instance of FreeG. when the mono FreeG is activated there's a very noticeable leap in volume but not when the stereo one's activated. As expected it looks to be about 6 dB, although it sounds a lot more than that to me....

[Frantiac]

Forgot to mention:

- Waves GTR mono on the 3rd effect slot - the level going in is 6dB too loud
- Add Waves GTR Tuner (a mono only plugin) to the 2nd slot - the level is now 12dB too loud.
- Add FreeG mono in the first slot to drop the level, which just by adding FreeG is now 18dB too loud.

The level is 18db too high and no processing has taken place - would it not be easier to let us choose either a mono or a stereo track to work with to circumvent the problem?

[Acoustica Greg]

Hi,

It's only certain plugins that are doing this, so the software developers need to take a look and see what's up before we devise a solution.

Greg

[Frantiac]

Ok Greg, thanks for letting me know. I assumed it was a problem with all mono plugins ...

[rrichard63]

Hi,

It's only certain plugins that are doing this, so the software developers need to take a look and see what's up before we devise a solution.

Greg

Have you found a monophonic version of a plugin that has both monophonic and stereo versions, that does not do this?

[Mark Bliss]

This is interesting.
I have, and use a number of plug ins that are offered in both mono and stereo versions, and have never noticed this issue.
But then I just insert and use the desired option I guess. Haven't likely toggled between the two versions to compare.

I'll try to find some time later to experiment. Based on the description it seems there may be some unexpected pan-law function quirks.

[outteh]

I think Mark May have hit on it. If the developer of the program (vst) did not take Pan Law into account you will have volume changes.

Have you ever wondered why, when you place a mono clip in a stereo timeline, or a stereo clip in a mono timeline, there’s a difference in audio levels? The reason is the “Pan Law” (or the “Pan Rule”).

This “is a recording and mixing principle that states that any signal of equal amplitude and phase that is played in both channels of a stereo system will increase in loudness up to 6.02 dBSPL, provided there is perfect response in the loudspeaker system and perfect acoustics in the room.” (Wikipedia)

In other words, “adding two identical signals [i.e. left and right channels] results in a 6 dB (6.02 dB actually) volume increase.” (Steinberg.net)

Because perfection is almost impossible to achieve, many audio consoles and audio software apply a -3 dB audio level change as a sound is panned from left or right (playing solely out of one speaker) to center (playing equally out both left and right speakers). In other words, the volume of a mono sound playing out a single speaker (panned fully left, for example) will be amplified +3 dB louder than the same sound panned center and playing out both speakers.

“The whole idea in the first place of “pan laws” and dipping the level in the centre of a pan pot, was that when people were doing those wild pans that had the guitar flying left to right all the time during a solo, the level of the thing being panned would seem to jump up and be too loud as it passed through the centre unless the centre was dipped….

“Theoretically, that -3 (or whatever) dip was chosen so that when you move a signal from far left into the centre it should appear to be about the SAME level, without adjustment. In practice, you adjust and once you HAVE adjusted, the amount of that dip built into the panner doesn’t matter anymore until you move the position again.” (Gearslutz)

This is the reason when you place a stereo clip on a mono timeline, it is about 6 dB too loud (+3 dB per channel), or that a mono clip placed into a stereo timeline will be about 6 dB too soft.

The amount of gain or loss can vary by audio console and the acoustics of the room. “Other common pan laws are -2.5dB, -4.5 and -6dB at center.” (Recording.org)

[mick]

I've just been playing about with mvmeter and it works great in Mixcraft 7. it has a choice of themes and you can link/unlink left and right channels as well as having midi learn.
https://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/mvmeter.html

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[Frantiac]

While this volume thing is being investigated I'm using Waves GTR Tool Rack stereo plugin instead of the mono/stereo version but I'm not really sure where I stand. Is there something going on internally which makes the stereo version unsuitable for a guitar's mono input? Or is the only reason for having different versions to do with saving resources? If that's the case can I assume that GTR Tool Rack stereo is the Waves equivalent of Amplitube, Guitar Rig etc. ?

[dpaterson]

Hi.

Found this some time ago and thought it prudent to post here now:

https://larryjordan.com/articles/audio- ... eo-levels/

Regards,

Dale.

P.S. Edit. Oops. Sorry. Didn't see the summary of the exact same article in one of the above posts. Anyways. Will leave the link here as there's some more interesting links to follow on the page (below).