Using both 32 bit and 64 bit Mixcraft - potential pitfalls?

[BillW]

Now that I have my Kontakt issue resolved and I have added another 4 GB of memory (8 GB total) I think I will try 64bit Mixcraft again.

But since I don't intend to upgrade my CPU right now, I want to keep 32 bit around as well.

And in order to hopefully eliminate future headaches, I've decided to reorganize my mixing related files.

TL;DR version -
How should I organize my 32 vs 64 bit plugins (free and purchased)
How would I know if I have both versions? Or what version any one plugin is?
How does Mixcraft know?

More specific:
In my mind, here's what that entails -
I keep the stuff the two versions load on install in their default locations. I assume I'm good there.

I keep my projects (and anything that gets created behind the scenes from them in a separate folder under My Documents called Mixcraft Projects New (I have a Mixcraft Projects Old folder, but since I didn't copy properly when I switched machines, the stuff there is not really usefull. Still - I'm saving it

I mix down to a folder called Mixed Down Projects, with sub folders for each song in progress, and then one for "final" mixes (with of course "final" being relative. Are we ever REALLY done? But I digress)

Now comes the worst part - VST and VSTi files. I have them ALL over the place. Probably a half dozen or more folders - besides the ones Mixcraft creates for their stock ones.

I can classify my plugins into two main categories - free and purchased.
The free ones are almost always just DLLs and it's easy to finf them and put into a folder called something. (Like I said, I've got a few "soemthings")

The purchased ones are more of a pain, since the install defaults are in no way consistent. The only thing I beleive is true is that those that can operate as a standalone put the EXE in the PRogram directory - and often asks where to put the DLL etc files.

I can easily (I hope) find all of those. I'd rather they go into a main folder called Purchased VST or something like that.

OK - no big deal so far EXCEPT - back to the original point. Running both 32bit and 64bit. Now I'm lost -

How can I tell if I have both versions of any given plugin?

If I happen to have both, how does Mixcraft know?

Should I have four main folders? 32 bit freebies, 64 bit freebies, 32 bit purchased, 64 bit purchased.

Or is it freebies with 32 bit and 64 bit underneath? And then purchased, with say PRoduct 1 folder and 32/64 under it, then Product 2 with 32 bit 64 bit under etc?

And again - though I'm being redundant - how will I know 32 vs 64 and how will Mixcraft know?

Or should I simply reinstall the purchased products and pay attention to where they want to put the plug ins vs my organization? Maybe not a bad idea - since I'm not even sure I loaded the 64 bit versions when I first go them.

That said, my first step is an inventory. Then mark which freebies I know I use (figuring if I delete one and realize I shouldn't have, I can always get it back.) But rather than actually delete any, I'll probably just put them in a holding folder that I don't make known to Mixcraft.

I think all this will be worth it - especially if I do end up getting a better machine.

[mixyguy2]

I'll be honest, I didn't read all that. But I will tell you I have a measly Celeron PC and 4GB RAM and 64-bit MC installed. Works fine, though granted I haven't tried to use a full-up orchestra and a zillion tracks, but I do use a lot of MIDI and layered sounds. It just seems far too complex and headache-inducing to try and keep track of two MCs, two kinds of VSTs, etc. I think you may underestimate what you can do with your current setup.

As for VSTs, every VST I have ever installed, freebie or not, has either given me the option of 32 vs 64 (or both) or at least told me which it was in the documentation, and typically they suggest the 64s in my \Program Files folder and my 32s in the \Program(x86) folder, which is very logical...but also too busy for me. I stash all VSTs in one folder. Since I'm only using MC 64, it doesn't matter to me what they are.

I guess I'm saying the only pitfall I'm aware of is what a royal PITA it would be for you to try and track everything.

[Mark Bliss]

@Bill

I think you are overthinking this. Very severely.
What you describe doing is largely unnecessary, and in some cases might cause you headaches that make the Kontakt issue look easy. I think. Still don't understand exactly what that issue was, but anyway.....
Simply put, moving stuff and arranging stuff the way you describe may make matters harder, not easier.

First suggestion. Instead of renaming the Mixcraft Projects folder you wish to use, do the opposite. Create a new folder, archive the contents of the old one into it, leaving the original folder and name as it was.

Next, know thiis. MX8/32 wont load 64 bit plug ins. So it will only exist in theory to revert to if you need to use it to run old projects that are in progress. (suggestion. Focus on finishing these so you can move on )
MX8/64 will load both 64 bit and 32 bit plug ins. The trouble you may run into here is if you run too may 32 bit plug ins in MX8/64, you may find the bit bridge consumes enough resources that the project wot run smoothly.
This can generally be simply addressed by only creating and opening new projects from MX8/64, and using the 32 bit version for existing projects.

You dont need to do anything special for filing projects. I have a project folder for each song project. Name of the song is the name of the folder. The project file and all project assets are within. Sometimes if desired I will make a subfolder within and save mixdown versions and tests etc into that subfolder.

Plug in organization is another matter. Multi part answer-

If both 32 bit and 64 bit versions are installed, MX8/64 will load the 64 bit version. It will show "64bit" in the title bar of the plug in when the plug in GUI is visible.
As you begin to use MX8/64, take note of the plug ins. If it loads a 32 bit version of a plug in that you know is available in 64, I would suggest addressing that on a case by case basis. Re-run the installer and select 64, or both if desired. Re-download if necessary, etc.
To be honest, as I migrated- I found that most all reputable modern plug ins were available in oth, so I initially installed both. Had to go back and reinstall some. Very few cases where there was only a 32 bit version and I have migrated away from those. The old Classics such as are still bundled into MX seem to have become the exeption in my experience.

Similarly, organizing plug ins can be a headache creating issue. Again I would address case by case. Some should be left alone. And its not easy to determine. And functionally, the only difference may be that MX scans them a little more quickly on loading than if they are scattered amongst many folders. But we are talking seconds....
In general, I would suggest that any plug ins that operate frm a shell, or have a complex installation folder structure of any kind be left alone. Assuming they are working as installed. Waves is an obvious example. Dont move stuff.
On the other end of the spectrum we have the ones that are simple .dll's
32 bit versions should have installed into Program files(x84)/VST something. and 64 bit into Program files/VST something. VST3 in another location (Common files)
These usually install pretty much as needed by default, but sometimes add their own little folder twists. One installer may add a proprietary folder name, or some older ones like to create a folder named Steinberg. You can clean this up a bit if desired, but its not critical, and like I said, you can create issues where things had been working prior..... Bottom line, if you get OCD on this like me, you may regret messing with it. It can kill a lot of time.

Did I miss anything?

[dpaterson]

Hello.

I DID in fact read EVERYTHING above before posting!!! LOL!!!

Wow Mark. Quite the post there???

I too have noticed that a LOT of these plugin developers have it wrong insofar as not adhering to what I understand should be the standard installation folders for 32-bit and 64-bit and VST2 and VST3 plugins. And I too have THOUGHT about uninstalling/rearranging/correcting plugin locations. But I can tell ya: it ain't worth it. Mixcraft does an absolutely stellar job of automatically finding folders with plugins and loading the correct plugins so it's something I'd really not bother with. Matter of fact: the only time Mixcraft has NOT been able to find a plugin and load the correct version has been when I've manually put it in a bad place. Now if at some point I was INDEED to upgrade to another notebook or PC then I'd ensure that anything installed went to the correct and standard folders for sure. Or would I??? I have known software that even although it allows you to change the default installation folders upon installation: it doesn't like it. Trust me on this one. In addition: a lot of these plugin updaters assume that you've used the default installation folders and all you need to is press "continue" by mistake without changing the default folder when updating and you can land up in a world of "sh1t".

Regards,

Dale.

[BillW]

Thanks much for the response - especially Mark.

Small distinction, but to me it's not that I'm overthinking it - it's that I'm thinking about it to be sure I'm doing it optimally. From your response, I see that it was smart of me to think and ask rather than plow ahead in ignorance.

Let me explain one part of my motivation in thinking through VST locations - and that is backups.

I don't backup my program directories. Instead I note what programs I have and where I can go to reinstall them if necessary. Saves a lot of space on my backup drives. (Plural - I actually put several things in THREE places - two drives at home and real special things (family pictures and videos mainly) on another drive that my son keeps in his house - in case of fire or whatever, I won't lose them, Obviously I only refresh that once or twice a year)

While I suppose technically VSTs and VSTi files are programs, I don't think of them the same way I think of Mixcraft, or Microsoft Excel, or any video editing software etc. To me they are files.

That said - its not that big a deal to specify those particular folders to be backed up with the Program directories. So if that's really best practice (sounds like it) then that is what I'll do.

Leave the purchased stuff installed where they put it - again, good idea in that as you say, moving stuff around can be dangerous.

So what I REALLY need is an inventory. And you helped me figure out a good way to approach it.

Since MX 64bit will tell me if it's using a 64bit vs 32bit plugiin, I can' simply open a new project assign plugins one at a time to a track and see what I have. It will tell me if I have a 64bit version or not (it won't tell me if I have both - sounds unimportant IF I move to 64bit and don't look back

So there's that - will I actually be able to run 64bit without regret on the machine I have? No way to know until I try. As you say, the best way is with a brand new project - not trying to convert an old one. (It's just that I am almost done with the non-orchestra parts of Nights in White Satin, and I may end up wanting to do the orchestra parts with a package that is 64bit only). But I can open the project - remove all the VSTs and start over with effects and instrument choice once I am sure I have all the 64bit versions available.

Finally - project folders. You say
"You don't need to do anything special for filing projects. I have a project folder for each song project. Name of the song is the name of the folder. The project file and all project assets are within. Sometimes if desired I will make a subfolder within and save mixdown versions and tests etc into that subfolder. "

And I guess from what Greg told me in another post, that's the default. What confuses me is that I SOMETIMES see subfolders with the name of the song under the Project folder I use, and other times I simply see a Mixcraft file under the root of the main project folder. And that I assume doesn't happen just because I'm use a folder called Mixcraft Projects New and not the Mixcraft default. But that's probably a question for the thread I started there.

I like the idea of putting trial mixdowns in that same location - subfolder under the song's project folder.

I think along those lines I will package the projects I'm done with (using the "copy project files" option Greg pointed out in another post). Note they are 32bit in case I ever decide to go back to revisit them.

Again - VERY helpful. I want to get stuff better organized while I have that motivation rather than start up using 64bit and possibly making things worse.

[Mark Bliss]

Wow Mark. Quite the post there???

Yes. Fatiguing. I think I took a 4 hr. nap after.

@Bill, your always welcome. I wanted to throw something out there since I have done it.
But in review, I now must consider that over time the need for both has disappeared for me I think. It may be past due to delete the other versions. I haven't opened MX7 in..... forever, and since going with a system upgrade, and moving on from old projects..... MX8/32 isn't really needed here anymore I reckon.
Have to think on that.

Small distinction, but to me it's not that I'm overthinking it - it's that I'm thinking about it to be sure I'm doing it optimally. From your response, I see that it was smart of me to think and ask rather than plow ahead in ignorance.

That's alright, and it wasn't meant as a slight in any way. Just intended to strongly indicate much of what you proposed is unnecessary and may cause more headaches, that's all.

I don't backup my program directories.

Honestly, I don't do any automated backups or anything special. I copy important folders and store them in back up drives. Nothing fancy here. I don't have much to back up on my DAW computer that isn't already existing on multiple drives and systems I guess.
I have never backed up my VST folders. Have to think about that, maybe its a good idea.

Leave the purchased stuff installed where they put it - again, good idea in that as you say, moving stuff around can be dangerous.

If it works, I try not to break it...….

I like the idea of putting trial mixdowns in that same location - subfolder under the song's project folder.

Especially when working on collabs and such, I make a lot of project versions and sometimes many mix down versions. The trick is a good naming convention.

I think along those lines I will package the projects I'm done with (using the "copy project files" option Greg pointed out in another post). Note they are 32bit in case I ever decide to go back to revisit them.

One could simply archive them with an added (32) on the folder name.

I want to get stuff better organized while I have that motivation rather than start up using 64bit and possibly making things worse.

The one universal truth seems to be that experience makes things easier. Even total screw ups are useful. So get in there and screw some things up.....

[dpaterson]

Whoah there Mr. Mark!!! LOL!!!

You sure are quoting me on a lot of stuff that I never said!!! LOL!!! Dunno how you fix that though.

For the record though (this is actually what caught my eye):

For the first time in my life I actually do backups (full disk migrations i.e. entire disk mirror images to be precise) on a regular basis (weekly at least). With all the money I've spent on software and plugins I ain't losing anything. And I sure ain't setting myself up for altercations with the likes of a company like MAGIX for example (support is bad enough without having to explain that you've upgraded, a disk has packed up, or something like that and you now need to re-register your software)!!! For stuff that changes on a daily basis I just copy to either a memory stick or another external drive.

Regards,

Dale.

[Mark Bliss]

Oh wow. I did say I was tired. Not sure how but I swapped your quotes for Bills...…
I'll fix it.

And yeah, I'm not recommending you don't need to, just saying mostly I don't and cant advise. Most everything critical I have, (which isn't really that critical)..... Is copied or duplicated to three places. The one time you need it though....
Yes, I've lost hard drives and had to shrug it off. Sometimes its good to have a clean start..... (for me)

[BillW]

To mixguy2:

You say you have a Celeron with 4GB RAM and run 64bit just fine. Would you mind telling me specifically which Celeron processor you have? I want to compare that with my chip to see if mine is on par.

I assume that older Pentiums can be slower than newer Celerons. Also, I suspect (logically) that the number of cores is where most of the advantage is - therefore a quad core Celeron would likely be better than a dual core Pentium.

I do worry that even with 8 Gb RAM my dual core machine will not run 64bit Mixcraft as well as I'd need.

(Still looking at refurbed computers... I can get i5s for under $250 but then I get into the dilemma of "for a couple hundred more - look at how much more I can get...)

[Acoustica Greg]

Hi,

You guys are spending a lot of time discussing the computer, but don't forget that the audio interface plays a big role as well.

Greg

[BillW]

Greg - I'm primarily talking about mixing.

In my simple "one man garage band" case, I'm only recording one track at a time through either a simple Tascam interface (for guitar and bass) or through a USB Akai mini-keyboard (with pads) for VSTi (drums included). Well, sometimes through "typing" in the piano roll as well.

Never an issue at all - but if I were recording multiple tracks with several inputs - sure, that makes sense.

[Acoustica Greg]

Hi,

What I'm saying is that the audio interface can really make a difference in general audio performance, especially for someone who doesn't have one. (Others who might be reading this thread). It offloads the audio processing to the interface, and built-in soundcards can process audio slowly. ASIO mode optimizes performance, even if you're only working with one track. That's why it's important to get an audio interface that has its own ASIO driver, optimized for low-latency recording and better audio performance.

Your Tascam should be fine, I didn't know what you had.

Greg

[Mark Bliss]

Very good point.

[mixyguy2]

To mixguy2:

You say you have a Celeron with 4GB RAM and run 64bit just fine. Would you mind telling me specifically which Celeron processor you have? I want to compare that with my chip to see if mine is on par.

I assume that older Pentiums can be slower than newer Celerons. Also, I suspect (logically) that the number of cores is where most of the advantage is - therefore a quad core Celeron would likely be better than a dual core Pentium.

I do worry that even with 8 Gb RAM my dual core machine will not run 64bit Mixcraft as well as I'd need.

(Still looking at refurbed computers... I can get i5s for under $250 but then I get into the dilemma of "for a couple hundred more - look at how much more I can get...)

N3060 is the model, zipping along at a blazing 1.6GHz. I have no idea how good or bad that all is (1.6 is obviously pretty slow these days, but clock speed doesn't matter like it used to) but the laptop is only a year or two old FYI. It does OK for what it is and what I use it for, but it's temporary.

Honestly I hate how there are 10 billion "chipsets" now, it's such a cluster and harder to determine how good or not a system is.

[dpaterson]

Yeh listen up. I feel the need to chime in here.

I dunno what Celeron machines you guys are talking about but I had an issue with my DAW notebook in December last year and tried, in an effort to tide me over, to use my HP Celeron notebook (what I use for my "real job" i.e. the one that pays for all of this stuff) which was new at the time (2.5GHz/Dual Core/4GB RAM) and I couldn't get squat to run on it even with ASIO drivers and Windows 7 Pro (cannot even imagine it working with Windows 10). Put it this way: it wan't good for much else other than recording one or two MIDI tracks at a very low sample rate (admittedly with the likes of SampleTank 3 i.e. dunno if the Acoustica VST's would have worked better). I do distinctly remember though that the Mixcraft sample project "I Can't Go On This Way" gave me the proverbial "middle finger" when I tried to load and play. Nah. Waste of time. Like trying to suck a golf ball through a garden hose!!! LOL!!!

For what it's worth: I get by handsomely with a HP notebook, Intel i7 Quad Core running at just shy of 3GHz (with Turbo Boost forced on), 8GB RAM, 7 200RPM SATA, and Windows 7 Pro. Unless I'm mucking about with ridiculous sample rates e.g. 88.2kHz and above: very rarely does my Mixcraft CPU rise above 3% - 5%. System CPU about the same on average, memory utilization has never gone above 50%, and this while (more often than not) using blood sucking VST's like BFD3, the stuff from IK Multimedia, iZotope, and not to mention liberal use of Melda's stuff at any given point in time. Oh, and, of course, MIxcraft Pro Studio 8 64-bit exclusively. Oh and of course: FOCUSRITE!!! LOL!!! I guess my point is: while I would absolutely LOVE one of those HP Omen notebooks I just cannot justify the cost. There's a lesson in this (somewhere).

I also saw Windows' ReadyBoost mentioned above. It works like an absolute charm. BUT you do need to remember that you cannot use just any old memory card i.e. it's has to be one these high speed jobs and not external USB either (even although Windows may allow this). And the trick is to ensure that you do NOT have a virtual memory file or paging file set up on your HDD i.e. only ReadyBoost set up and running. And, last but certainly not least, there's all of those Windows Services and AutoStarts that must be disabled (all are covered very well in the thread on this topic).

SOMEHOW though: this thread has gone off topic (but at least it's not MY fault this time!!! LOL!!!). There are no potential pitfalls having and using both 32-bit and 64-bit Mixcraft on the same workstation. Only the difference in VST's (32-bit or 64-bit) will dictate.

Regards,

Dale.