440 to 432

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TheHound
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440 to 432

Post by TheHound » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:08 pm

A guy I am working with suggested that I record in 432 instead of 440. I have used pitch adjustment in semitones to fatten up the vocals but I think that the what Mixcraft is calling semitones are actually cents. My understand is that semitones are the intervals in used in Indian music.

How can I go from 440 to 432?

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Mark Bliss
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Cents are fractions of a semitone. Semitones in this context are the standard increments of the chromatic scale.
On "Indian music" you are probably getting into modal scales. Whole nuther thing.
The common standard for the basis of conventional/modern tuning is A=440hz. In short, some people believe there are various benefits to the alternative tuning of 432hz. (Fwiw, I am not one of them.)
If you use virtual instruments, brass instruments, woodwinds, etc. You will be hating life in no time! 8)

You can accomplish this in audio in Mixcraft by typing in the transposition of -.3
Stay in tune, Mark

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TheHound
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by TheHound » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:08 pm

When I duplicate vocal tracks I change the pitch using "semitones" flat or sharp and I barely notice a change which is what I want.

I think in Indian music, on the sitar there are notes between B and C, C# and D etc...

The cent is a logarithmic unit of measure used for musical intervals. Twelve-tone equal temperament divides the octave into 12 semitones of 100 cents each. Typically, cents are used to express small intervals, or to compare the sizes of comparable intervals in different tuning systems, and in fact the interval of one cent is too small to be heard between successive notes.

If I am reading this italic correctly a cent is 100 tiny intervals that occur in each note like when you are using a guitar tuner??? I tune my bass strings slightly flat on some guitars and the treble strings slightly sharp.

Am I correct in thinking that 432 is 8 cents lower than 440?

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Mark Bliss
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:45 pm

No, that difference would be 8hz.

There are 100 cents to a semi-tone (half step) 200 cents in a whole tone (or whole step), 1200 cents in an octave, this is assuming we are talking the even tempered scale.
The difference in hz between any two steps isn't the same as we go up or down the scale, so the relationship between cents/hz would change.
For example, the difference between G4 (392hz) and A4 (440) is 48hz, which = 200 cents. While the difference between G2 (97.999hz) and A2 (110hz) is 12hz which also = 200 cents.
The real power in expressing in cents would be if you want to go down the rabbit hole of comparing equal tempered, vs, just tempered, vs Pythagorean tempered.......
Before doing that, I would consider- are you interested in the musicality, history or physics of this?

Sticking strictly to the 432hz thing, Its one of those things that may be debated forever. Believers believe despite every effort to explain the actual science. I will leave you to your own research and conclusions, but here is (IMO) a good place to start:
https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory ... om-fiction

If its the history of the equal temperament standard that interests you, I really enjoyed this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Temperament-Beca ... emperament

If its the math and physics of temperaments, intervals, scales etc....
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... cn.html#c1

That should keep one preoccupied for a spell......

Oh, and if the math hasnt burned my last few brain cells, I believe lowering your A4 to 432hz would be about 31 cents. Enough to sound noticably out of tune with 99.9% of the rest of the orchestra. :roll:
Last edited by Mark Bliss on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheHound
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by TheHound » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:21 pm

Mark Bliss wrote:No, that difference would be 8hz.

There are 100 cents to a semi-tone (half step) 200 cents in a whole tone (or whole step), 1200 cents in an octave, this is assuming we are talking the even tempered scale.
The difference in hz between any two steps isn't the same as we go up or down the scale, so the relationship between cents/hz would change.
For example, the difference between G4 (392hz) and A4 (440) is 48hz, which = 100 cents. While the difference between G2 (97.999hz) and A2 (110hz) is 12hz which also = 100 cents.
The real power in expressing in cents would be if you want to go down the rabbit hole of comparing equal tempered, vs, just tempered, vs Pythagorean tempered.......
Before doing that, I would consider- are you interested in the musicality, history or physics of this?

Sticking strictly to the 432hz thing, Its one of those things that may be debated forever. Believers believe despite every effort to explain the actual science. I will leave you to your own research and conclusions, but here is (IMO) a good place to start:
https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory ... om-fiction

If its the history of the equal temperament standard that interests you, I really enjoyed this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Temperament-Beca ... emperament

If its the math and physics of temperaments, intervals, scales etc....
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... cn.html#c1

That should keep one preoccupied for a spell......

Oh, and if the math hasnt burned my last few brain cells, I believe lowering your A4 to 432hz would be about 31 cents. Enough to sound noticably out of tune with 99.9% of the rest of the orchestra. :roll:
I played around with MC and figure things out.

I was sent some 432 files and I was able to get them to 440 and now I remember how I did it. I was having a brain leak before I answered the question. I've read the theory but I have not seen any science. I would be interested in seeing brains scans.

I think you will find this interesting. It's called the Coltrane fractal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J98jwtm5U4E

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Mark Bliss
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by Mark Bliss » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:34 am

Oops!
While trying to sleep after writing all that I realized I had made a mistake.
G to A is a whole step. Therefore 200 cents, not 100 as I originally wrote and since edited.

The Coletrane Fractal video presents an interesting phenomenon, but yet another rabbit trail :lol:
Guys got too much time on his hands I reckon.
Stay in tune, Mark

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TheHound
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by TheHound » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:51 pm

Some rabbit trails can be be fun.

I was thinking more about frequency and keys. Different keys have a different "feel" but keys are quite arbitrary whereas sound and frequency isn't. IMO keys can effect the "feel" of the music. It may have something to do with timbre of the instruments but it also may have something to do with how the brain reacts to frequencies.

I am not ready to discount the notion that certain frequencies within a small range of variants have different affects on living things and human neurology.

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dpaterson
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by dpaterson » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:22 pm

Interesting links Mr. Bliss.

Fortunately for me (and for everyone else around here I expect) I am all “rabbit holed out” (at least for this year!!! LOL!!!) i.e. this just the kind of thing that could distract me for yet another few months at least.

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Mark Bliss
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by Mark Bliss » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Damn. I was counting on you Dale! :lol:
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Ian Craig
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by Ian Craig » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:43 pm

Resonant frequencies are the building blocks of matter. Many of these videos demonstrate this. If you want to record at 432 you could do a recording as usual at 440 then pitch shift the whole thing. Just a thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=wvJAgrUBF4w
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TheHound
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Re: 440 to 432

Post by TheHound » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:36 pm

Ian Craig wrote:Resonant frequencies are the building blocks of matter. Many of these videos demonstrate this. If you want to record at 432 you could do a recording as usual at 440 then pitch shift the whole thing. Just a thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=wvJAgrUBF4w
I was starting to head in that direction. Years ago I was thinking about the covalent bonds that hold H20 together and I as wondering if certain frequencies of pulsed current could break those bonds without using the high energy required today to split water. I've watched those Youtube videos showing cars running on water and I'm pretty sure it's bunk.

I know for certain that pulsed light can induce seizures. I also know for certain than music can cause changes in the brain and our emotions.

If you want to really go down a rabbit hole, check out this article on the modes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

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