Send track confusion

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BillW
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Send track confusion

Post by BillW » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:15 pm

I'm trying to get smarter as I find time for this hobby. So for the first time I'm using a send track (Don't laugh)

I have a four piece horn section (using Chris Hein Horns via Kontakt - that maybe is pertinent?) And I want some reverb on all so I inserted a send track, put on a reverb ;lug in, and turned up send knob on each of the four. So far so good.

So there is a section where I want to make the horns softer. I figure rather than use volume automation on each of the four tracks, I'd do it on the send track. But even if I put it down to negative inf, it does nothing.

Same with the gain knob on the send track. Turning it down has no effect (though turning it up does make it louder)

What am I not understanding?
Mixcraft 8 Pro (32bit) runs fine on a Toshiba Satellite C55-B laptop with a wimpy Celeron N2830 (dual core). Now using 64bit on a "less wimpy" Dell 660S/Dual Core Pentium/8GB RAM.

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Anorax
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Anorax » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:43 pm

Sends are either pre fader or post fader. Make sure to right-click on the Send knob in your source tracks' automation area and see what it's set to.

I would take a screenshot but a recent storm took out my home internet so I'm stuck posting from my phone for the moment.

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Rolling Estonian
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Rolling Estonian » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:56 pm

Could you put the horns into a submix and have the reverb make them sound like they're sharing space?

M

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:15 am

BillW wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:15 pm
I'm trying to get smarter as I find time for this hobby. So for the first time I'm using a send track (Don't laugh)
Nothing to laugh at, by discussing this you help others learn or gain ideas Bill.
BillW wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:15 pm
I have a four piece horn section (using Chris Hein Horns via Kontakt - that maybe is pertinent?) And I want some reverb on all so I inserted a send track, put on a reverb plug in, and turned up send knob on each of the four. So far so good.
Find a reverb type and sound you like, and be sure to set the reverb to 100% wet.
The tracks send knob sets the amount of reverb for that track. Sometimes I will pull down the send tracks fader, say 6dB, simply to provide a better range of adjustment for the send knobs. I dont like it when "just barely off zero" is almost too much, if you know what I mean.
BillW wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 1975 3:48 pm
So there is a section where I want to make the horns softer. I figure rather than use volume automation on each of the four tracks, I'd do it on the send track. But even if I put it down to negative inf, it does nothing.
The send level doesnt effect the original track level. Think of it a a "copy" of the original, being sent to another processor or effect.
If you want to automate the reverb amount, automate the send levels.
If you want to automate the track levels, it might be best to put the tracks in a submix, as Rolling Estonian suggests, just for simplicity. That way you can just automate one level (for all four tracks in this example),
Or you could just use individual track automation if you wished to automate them differently etc.
And as Anorax points out, be aware that the result of turning the tracks up or down is related to the send preference of "pre" or "post" fader. If its set to prefader, the track fader has no effect on the send level. Post fader would mean the track fader effects the send level.
One more level of complication. If you put the four tracks in a submix, changing that fader has a relationship with the track send levels as well. In the default settings, changing the submix level would have no effect on your reverb level (in this example)
But now in MX9, you have the option of routing your send return back to the submix, instead of the main bus.... Which makes it so the submix fader also effects the reverb level.
(One of these days I hope to update my ancient graphic presentation of all of this, hopefully for more clarity!)
BillW wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 1975 3:48 pm
Same with the gain knob on the send track. Turning it down has no effect (though turning it up does make it louder)
I would suggest leaving the gain knob alone, at default for send tracks would be best in all but possibly a very few rare situations.
Think of the gain knob as something you would use to adjust for something recorded at too low a level, (or too high) to get in a more ideal range coming into your channel strip.
When you turned it down, you were hearing the level of the four horn tracks, so it seemed to do little. When you turned it up, you were adding to the original four horn tracks, so it seemed louder.
Like I suggested, leave it alone in this his case. Same with the send track level. Once set, your going to want to leave it there for this use.

That help?
Stay in tune, Mark

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BillW
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by BillW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:45 am

Did that help? Yep it helped convince me this is way more complicated than I thought :)

Ok, so I'm in effect thinking of a send track as a submix. I think that's the actual disconnect I have

Creating a submix fixes the "single volume automation" desire, not the send

The send eliminates the need for 4 instances of the reverb plug in. No more than that (though that's significant in memory consumption)

The rest (pre vs post fader etc) sounds less important for what I'm trying to do

But here's a new question. I'm not at my computer btw. Can't I just put the reverb on the submix? No need for a send track at all?
Mixcraft 8 Pro (32bit) runs fine on a Toshiba Satellite C55-B laptop with a wimpy Celeron N2830 (dual core). Now using 64bit on a "less wimpy" Dell 660S/Dual Core Pentium/8GB RAM.

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Anorax
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Anorax » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:57 am

BillW wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:45 am
Did that help? Yep it helped convince me this is way more complicated than I thought :)

Ok, so I'm in effect thinking of a send track as a submix. I think that's the actual disconnect I have

Creating a submix fixes the "single volume automation" desire, not the send

The send eliminates the need for 4 instances of the reverb plug in. No more than that (though that's significant in memory consumption)

The rest (pre vs post fader etc) sounds less important for what I'm trying to do

But here's a new question. I'm not at my computer btw. Can't I just put the reverb on the submix? No need for a send track at all?
Yes. The only reason for using a send is so that you could adjust the level of the reverb separately from the dry horns.

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Rolling Estonian
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Rolling Estonian » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:06 am

Using a good reverb properly on a submix of horns can make them truly sound like they're sharing the same room.

M

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 am

Yes, to simplify things you could certainly just put the reverb on the horns submix.
The limitations of this are the loss of ability to adjust the amount of reverb for the individual tracks (probably of no real significance in this specific case)
And unlike using a send, other instruments of the project, (outside the horns submix) cannot be routed through the same reverb incidence (to provide the same sense of "space")

And I would note that while it seems complicated, what I described isnt really that bad, it seems more complicated in description than in actual implementation.
Some people would set up a template to work from, with all that preset too.
Stay in tune, Mark

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BillW
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by BillW » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:07 pm

OK - thanks again Mark and everyone!

Got it all to work great. I used the send even though putting it on the submix would work as well in this case.

One thing I didn't realize is the "wetness" of the reverb was set rather low in the plugin so I kicked it up.

I'm getting better - next step is to learn how to copy/paste automation. A couple sections have the horns doing that thing when the hit it hard, then softer and the gradually louder. Comes in four times in the song and I set it manually each time. BTW - the curved automation works great here - the effect is much better than if it were linear.

No need to answer how to do it - I'm sure it's an easy thing to do and easy to find. Hey, I need to do a little leg work too!

I always compare to a song I did on MX years ago that was the first where I felt like it was at least "listen-able". I've come a long way since then!
Mixcraft 8 Pro (32bit) runs fine on a Toshiba Satellite C55-B laptop with a wimpy Celeron N2830 (dual core). Now using 64bit on a "less wimpy" Dell 660S/Dual Core Pentium/8GB RAM.

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Rolling Estonian
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Rolling Estonian » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:53 pm

BillW wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:07 pm
I'm getting better - next step is to learn how to copy/paste automation. A couple sections have the horns doing that thing when the hit it hard, then softer and the gradually louder. Comes in four times in the song and I set it manually each time. BTW - the curved automation works great here - the effect is much better than if it were linear.

No need to answer how to do it - I'm sure it's an easy thing to do and easy to find. Hey, I need to do a little leg work too!
Right back to compression!

M

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:12 pm

Why? I dont get that from the description.
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Anorax
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Anorax » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:46 pm

I mean... yeah, you *could* have some compression with a very soft knee for that, but... You could also ride the faders too like Bill is thinking of doing.

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Mark Bliss
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by Mark Bliss » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:46 pm

Yeah, maybe I misunderstand. But I got the impression the desire was to create/maintain some dynamics, cut and paste automation to duplicate. Etc.

Bill?
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BillW
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by BillW » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:26 am

Yes, Mark - that's it. Just in the sections where the horns do the loud, to soft to loud again dynamic. I have it perfect and since it's in four places it would have been easier to copy/paste the automation. I did it brute force but I do want to learn how to do it.

Don't spoil me BTW! Let me figure it out.
Mixcraft 8 Pro (32bit) runs fine on a Toshiba Satellite C55-B laptop with a wimpy Celeron N2830 (dual core). Now using 64bit on a "less wimpy" Dell 660S/Dual Core Pentium/8GB RAM.

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outteh
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Re: Send track confusion

Post by outteh » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:04 pm

CUTTING, COPYING, AND PASTING AUTOMATION DATA
Automation data can easily be cut, copied, and pasted.
 Cut
To Cut a section of automation, highlight the section of automation to be cut by clicking and dragging over the area to be cut. Now select [CTRL]+X either in Mixcraft’s file menu, or by right-clicking the mouse to copy.You can paste the cut automation data to a new location by positioning the Caret marker in the desired new location, then selecting [CTRL]+V either in Mixcraft’s file menu, or by right-clicking.
 Copy
To Copy, highlight the section of automation you’d like copied by clicking and dragging over the area to be copied. Now select [CTRL]+C either in Mixcraft’s file menu, or by right-clicking the mouse to copy. Position the Caret marker in the desired copy location, and paste by selecting [CTRL]+V either in Mixcraft’s file menu, or by right-clicking.
Automation data may be freely copied between tracks, and even to different parameter lanes. You can also copy multiple automation lanes or automation lanes and clips simultaneously. The only limitation is that Mixcraft will only copy automation data
to visible lanes, e.g., if volume and pan lanes are copied to track with only a volume lane visible, only the volume controller data will be copied. This is done to prevent automation data from copying to an “invisible” location and causing confusion.

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