Metering in Mixcraft

[Mark Bliss]

First appologies. I dont do FB, and am going to pretend it doesnt exist for the purposes of discussion.

OK, theres a few more clues here as to where you are coming from.
Good experiment and its great that you are thinking about this. But some background may clarify a few things.

First off, RMS really takes us back to a pre digital age. A signals level was expressed in terms of voltage, and RMS is a way of expressing an average voltage signal.

What it doesnt do is factor in the difference in perceived loudness across the frequency range. IE: the "Fletcher Munson" curve.
Human hearing responds differently to different frequencies. In other words, different frequencies sound louder than others. And this curve changes at different volumes. (IE: flattens out somewhat at higher volumes, contributing to the effect of louder seeming to sound better.) But I digress.

RMS "knows" nothing of this. It is totally ignorant as to the non-linearity of human hearing.

So what is missing from your experiment is: close your eyes. Which sounds are perceived as louder? Despite measuring the same (or similar) RMS. Maybe its not obvious at first. I heard it. Even on a tablet! Its obvious to my ear.

Enter LU metering which IS designed to compensate for this.
But yet its still complex. And for every new detail learned, there are ten more mysteries revealed to explore.
Its one of the things that intrigues me so much about all of this stuff!

[bigaquarium]

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[bigaquarium]

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[Mark Bliss]

Not necessarily.
My interpretation of that portion of your comparison was that it showed a variance in LU where RMS showed very little right?
This would be expected, as LU is weighted to better represent how hearing actually works as opposed to simple signal strength measurement. Thats the purpose.
Either way, while interesting its kind of a side trip IMO.

[bigaquarium]

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[Mark Bliss]

No. That's likely not "digital clipping" its an artifact of another sort.

Digital clipping, as pertaining to levels, is simply exceeding the level at which the digital converter can accurately reproduce the audio.

Record some audio, intentionally "deep in the red"
Now record the same audio at "proper" levels.
Level match the two clips and compare. If done as above, you will clearly hear the distortion of the clipped file. That is digital clipping.

[bigaquarium]

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[Mark Bliss]

Well... I dunno. I have to admit I am a little lost as to the details of the experiment as expressed. So not sure.

I got that you showed a difference between different test tones. But that was a given, and basically described in the linked metering tutorial describing the difference between a more transient sample and a more steady sample. (I think the author used a high transient sound vs. bass for example to show the result in RMS)

But yeah, actually 1.3 dB isn't really that much difference, with 1 dB being by definition the minimum discernable change to human hearing. (Yet another side trip of more potential debate than useful purpose.)

Bottom line to me, its a fun and interesting exercise, but likely has little to do with real world application. I certainly understand and support your curiosity, but wonder if its not a case on hyper-focusing on something of relatively low importance.
But maybe I just still don't quite understand the question.

[bigaquarium]

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[Drdish007]

Hi,
Just a note on the rms difference in levels of the different wave forms. It is more like measuring the power of the wave form. Electrically a square wave will produce more power than a wine wave. A peak meter is just measuring the highest signal level, RMS measures more of the signals power.

- Myran

[Mark Bliss]

Wine wave. Now we are getting somewhere!
WhooHoo! Wine wave!

But seriously, yes- thats exactly what was described in the linked metering tutorial, what I was trying to express about the meaning/utility of RMS measurements and what (a portion of) the tests in Nathans video show as far as I can tell.

I would never discourage anyone from exploring this to the fullest extent. To me, its fascinating stuff. But on the other hand....
Its like a bottomless pit of info. For every thing you learn, it opens the door to ten more mysteries. And honestly, based on my own search for enlightenment, the honest truth is that much of it can be a distraction or rabbit trail more than a useful piece of info.
I am only suggesting that what you really need to know to record, mix and if desired, master digital audio, at least for getting started with good results- does not require a deep knowledge of every detail of the subject of metering and measuring.
So what I am suggesting is starting with a solid basic foundation and expanding on that as desired.
I desire to revisit this but am short on time right now. In the meantime I am trying to understand just what is needed while wanting to keep it as simple and helpful as possible.
There is so much misinformation, misinterpretation, opinion without factual basis....

[jlouvar]

Hmm, I'm bummed-out... Now I want a wine wave, but don’t know which is better, red or white.

Myran: I'm just having fun... I know it was a typo, but I love it.

[Mark Bliss]

Nathan, please dont misinterpret my replies in any way beyond trying to help.
Really some of this reflects what I see as very common and widespread misconceptions. I discover some of my own on a regular basis!
If you feel confused by any of this, I suspect you are in good company. Probably a majority.
And though I far from "know it all" I do wish to help in some way as I learn as well. If I can... (Learning with you!)

The previous points I have asked about for clarifications sake have gone ignored, so its been hard for me to "read" how to best respond in my effort to help.

Heres another example statement that confuses me:

The driving force behind the experiment was to look at whether those signals were higher in the box. So in other words, if you had a non-multi compressor that happened to look at RMS in its signaling circuit, would it see a square wave or a higher frequency as being louder than a different wave/lower frequency.

I am going to assume by "non-multi compressor" you mean a bog standard non- multi-band compressor.

The detection circuit of a common compressor doesnt really care about RMS or frequency. If the signal exceeds the chosen threshold, compression is applied. More of a peak thing then right?

(Yeah, there are RMS detection circuit compressors, but I dont think thats what we are talking about here?)

[Mark Bliss]

Minor correction. I previously described where -18 was on the track view meters and my memory failed me.

-18dBfs/0Vu on the track meters=

0vu track meter.png (13.82 KiB) Viewed 2734 times

And on the transport bar meter=

0vu transport bar meter.png (30.97 KiB) Viewed 2734 times

This is notable for a few reasons, but primarily for recording level purposes.