Midi Control Commands (CC) and how to use

[outteh]

Chime in gang, I am by no means the expert!

[Mark Bliss]

Your doing Fine Tom. And I appreciate the time and effort!
I'm still on the fence on the whole MIDI VSTi thing beyond basic drums, kind of fiddly and lacks creative flow. But I am trying to approach it with an open mind and not be too much of an old dog.

Funny I never noticed the VST inserts in the instrument presets, that's an interesting discovery for me. Got it!

In your fiddle track, where you used the pitch wheel to get some vibrato and (Glissando?- rusty on some technical terms.... ) Anyway, is there any significance to the red line? Or does that just indicate the center?

PW data.jpg (15.27 KiB) Viewed 11552 times

[chibear]

Just to amplify the discussion of CC7 and 11 a bit. They do control volume as Tom says and at least theoretically should be interchangeable with clip volume automation.

However when dealing with libraries and players I have found that this works with Miroslav, but not so well with EWQL and Kontakt libraries where, in order to get a nice phrase and note ends or change a note's attack without addressing ASDR it is necessary to do it in CC11.

Furthermore for the vibrato changes, Kontakt makes it possible to assign either CC#s or host automation to most knobs & sliders. Yet the results I get from the 2 are quite different with the CC#s seeming more reactive than the automation lane.

Anyone know why?????

[outteh]

The red line is the center on the pitch wheel, just a point of reference. From the center line, if you go up all the way or down all the way, it is a complete one octave change. CC 11 is a percentage of volume so that may have something to do with it's capabilities. Not having worked in Kontakt or EWQL I'm not sure how they interpret these CC commands. They might be more explicit to their instruments manipulation through their software. The CC 7 volume command is very much tied into the track volume. If you use it in the MIDI track you'll notice it can impact what the track volume is capable of. If the CC command is at, let's say 50 in volume, then when the track volume is at the center, 0 db, it will only be half as loud.

[davefk]

I think that would be very helpful Clyde, and theres no rush. I intend to be around a while yet......

My goal is just to add some tools to the tool box. I can do the MIDI basics, but in a nutshell, I'd like to be able to have results that sound a bit further from what I played with while learning BASIC programming on the old C64 in about 1984. Now that was un-fulfilling.......

Here is a site with a pretty good explanation about midi CC controllers

http://tweakheadz.com/midi-controllers/

[outteh]

Thanks for chiming in Dave. Post some more tips for the gang!

[outteh]

A little Jr Walker and the All Stars to experiment with the arpeggiator on the Minimouge. Shows what can be done with the effect. Probably messed up a good song here but it came out OK. VB3 Hammond and JP-90 bass. Mixed drum sets and a little Sax and brass. Comments welcome.

Shotgun - Arpeggiated

[outteh]

Any progress on this stuff guys? How about some more tips/examples?

[chibear]

I was actually waiting for questions and/or comments on my first example before continuing. Was I (finally) clear enough or did I run off the geek tracks and leave everyone glassy-eyed?

[Mark Bliss]

Tom, Clyde and Dave-

Actually I was just checking in to do some reading and studying on what you guys have posted. I have been a little distracted and "out of order" for a period due to some outside life B.S. and haven't had a chance to really give this the due diligence I intend to.

Summary: Still here and working on it when I can.

Also, I did some brief work on the "eight bars in eight minutes" piece I had started. Cant even remember what that was about. Oh yeah, "Use what works" or something built on two synth chords.
Nothing unusual except that I kind of experimented and let the project run itself a little, and despite doing nothing particularly different it kind of worked on its own........ Sometimes that seems to be the way things go. Quit trying so hard and something clicks. May post an updated "work in progress" soon.

[Mark Bliss]

Ok, some update and commentary on where I am on this, mind you its slow and you all are way ahead of me.......

First off, I found this a very useful summary, and I feel a good place to start for anyone at my stage is this PDF found within the Midi.org site suggested by Tom. It gives a good overview and contains a lot of well presented information!
http://www.midi.org/aboutmidi/intromidi.pdf

For me, the first half was mostly full of "yeah, I know that" topics and descriptions but there is some helpful tidbits thrown in that I wasn't aware of. The second half (or so) jumps right into "MEGO" (My eyes glaze over) technical territory, but I studied it and made a mental note that its at minimum, a handy reference to return to!
But I also was thinking as I attempted to digest some of that, maybe good software and GUI's really take the tedium out of some of that?

Also, I found this to have some interesting points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOaP4OD1sUc

Not so much the use of effects (Though he shares some useful thoughts) but the basic arrangement/composition tips in the beginning. I had seen or heard some of the tips before but it is just well conveyed here.

So back to this thread and some specific thoughts and questions as I try to catch up.

Tom, I meant to point out that the fiddle in your example has a lot of potential for such a simple resource! And the steel guitar came out well too! Had to think about those notes and progressions a bit didn't you! Nice subtle stabs and complementary bits in there. Difficult to think and compose that stuff.

Clyde, the piece on switches and stuff is just too far ahead of me just yet! Sadly, I am so not there!

But I think I am getting the basics pounded in to me, I need to keep gaining experience. What I keep coming back to though is a similar basic problem, so here's my question:

I often find myself working with a string track, (Section or solo) usually backing up another lead track (Say piano for discussion sake) and I desire to get that realistic swell, or ebb and flow that makes it sound nice. Volume/expression variations sound so fake and obviously "MIDI" you know, and modulation just isn't quite it...... I hear some peoples work and know it can be done, and I hear what I want in my head and no matter how much I tweak and fuss over this little subtle touch I cant get satisfactory results! Is this just simply a limitation of not having better sampler's/VSTi's (Or clearly, a lack of experience using them) or am I missing something obvious?

Oh and again, thanks as always. I am surprised more people aren't taking part in this discussion, it feels like you are all helping only me! I hope someone at some point is reading this and getting some benefit from it as well!

[outteh]

First, don't set your expectations too high. No matter what VSTi or effects you apply you won!t ever get to the artistry level of an actual musician playing the actual instrument. There are way too many variables when an artist is performing, their interpretation of the piece, touch, instrument itself, feel and artistic inuendo.
So having said that, keep in mind the instrument you are emulating (strings, fiddle, bass, flute, etc.) and what it can actually do. If you take a note and hold it for 4 measures (beats) what is it you would want to do to it during that particular section. Should it have a little bend here and there, does it need to swell in volume to the middle and drop back down? Does it just need to hold it and stop suddenly? When you start thinking in the mode of the instrument as it applies to the piece you are creating it helps. It does get more complicated as you work arpeggios, melody and chords, but think in terms of the instrument and it helps. Many times, I apply pitch bend and expression swells randomly and then go back an tweak the area that it doesn't work well in. I do this a lot with fiddle and violin pieces. I,ll basically put the notes to the piano roll from some sheet music or other source and then randomly apply some effects, tweaking it after. Obviously none of this is very fast and a small piece can take sometime to get to sound like you want.
Anyway, as with anything, there is probably a zillion different ways to get to where you want. I'm sure others will chime in with their methods.

[Mark Bliss]

Understood buddy, and I wasn't comparing to real performances, though my goal is to successfully get more convincing results! I was comparing to results I know are MIDI/VSTi's.
Still experimenting.

[Mark Bliss]

Hey, I was just looking at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTDAv4m1wKo
Very interesting features, logical work flow, kinda cool. But it appears to be iOS only. Anybody seen anything similar for PC? The touch screen iPad deal is kinda cool, and an inexpensive MIDI interface might allow Mixcraft connectivity. But an iPad..... Pricey devils.

[Mark Bliss]

OK folks, heres my first MIDI exclusive composition.
I changed the bass track from that horrible sounding synth thing I was using to a more palatable and hopefully realistic example using Acoustica instruments "Slap bass 1"

It still contains the sample I "lifted" from DungBeetle, (Thanks!) but otherwise is EZDrummer, Pianissimo and Acoustica instruments.

Rough mix, no finalization, just a simple exercise in MIDI.

https://soundcloud.com/mbliss01/restarted