volume boost?

[Frantiac]

Another 3 months gone by - any news?

[dpaterson]

Hi.

Not that this is going to help matters but since this thread was started I too have acquired WAVES GTR3 and the PRS amps. and I don't have any of these issues i.e. no difference between using the mono or mono/stereo versions. Only thing I have to watch for is if panning hard left or hard right i.e. pan law is not applied so the output jumps significantly on the panned side is all.

Regards,

Dale.

[Frantiac]

That's interesting - if you get a moment could you try adding nothing but the Waves GTR Tuner (which is mono only) and confirm that there's no volume change when you turn it on and off?

[Frantiac]

I've just re-read your post and you're right - there's no difference between the mono and mono/stereo plugins. The problem is that they are both incorrectly upping the gain, which doesn't happen with the stereo version.

I only came across this problem because I use the GTR Drive amp exclusively with the gain set to minimum. Using the mono and mono/stereo versions there's already too much distortion for me, but not with the stereo one.

I've also tried adding nothing but Sonalksis FreeG and the same thing happens - simply by adding the mono version the gain jumps by 6dB, but not the stereo version.

By the way I've used GTR with Pro Tools and Cubase but this only happens with MIxcraft.

[dpaterson]

Hello.

Will give it a try right now and let you know.

I think I may have been a bit quick on the uptake i.e. like Mark I've never actually loaded both to compare output at the same time. Lemme check.

Chat now.

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

OK. Well. It would seem that I have egg on my face (again).

You are correct. There is a volume boost with "GTR Amp Mono" and "GTR Amp Mono/Stereo". There is no volume boost with "GTR Amp Stereo". I checked the PRS Custom Models too but there doesn't appear to be any problem with them. So looks like it's just GTR 3. And the difference as you've already managed to calculate is around 6dB (talking peak levels).

Sorry for the incorrect information that I first posted. I would never have noticed though i.e. whenever I've used GTR 3 (GTR 3.5 to be exact) I've only ever loaded the "Mono/Stereo" plugin and never the pure "Mono" or the pure "Stereo" plugin.

Why is this a problem though??? Just curious. And I suppose the main reason I ask is because if you're gain staging (-6dB/-18dB RMS) then you'd adjust your input to the plugin to not exceed -6dB/-18dB RMS and then adjust the output of the plugin (to the next plugin or whatever) also to -6dB/-18dB RMS so even if the output from the mono plugin is too hot then it's attenuated to the correct -6dB/-18dB RMS level not???

Also bear in mind (that as far as I know anyway): a mono channel in Mixcraft is actually a dual mono (stereo???) track internally.

But Greg has noted that it is a problem with SOME plugins. Exactly why and what the problem is I do not know. And we cannot even surmise that it's because the L and R channels are being summed because in that case the output would be double of the stereo plugin would it not???

Regards,

Dale.

[Frantiac]

Hi Dale - thanks for doing that. No, it's not a real problem - just a little inconvenient that's all, having to fiddle-arse about with FreeG each time. It's more about letting the developers know that there is some sort of bug. Earlier posts have pointed to a Pan Law problem but it's still to be confirmed.

For instance: FreeG mono -> Waves GTR Tuner -> Waves GTR Amp Mono -> GTR Stomp 2 Mono (empty) -> FreeG mono = 30dB jump in gain that shouldn't be there.

Are you absolutely sure that the PRS Custom plugins don't have the same problem? It even happens with the good old Simulanalog stuff - in fact with every mono plugin that I've tried.

Cheers,
Graham

[Frantiac]

Hi again Dale - I've just discovered that the Waves PRS SuperModels don't have a stereo version, only mono and mono/stereo. Based on what's I've seen so far I'd be surprised if the gain isn't already 6dB too hot when using those plugins.

[dpaterson]

Hey Graham.

My pleasure.

I forgot to try the tuner though (was just reading through some of your posts). Will try that too. Will also try your exact setup as detailed above (30dB jump in gain is a LOT let's face it).

I've checked the PRS stuff again. Doesn't look like there is a problem with them though. I loaded "PRS Archon Mono" and "PRS Archon Mono/Stereo" and monitored with iZotope Insight. Levels pretty much identical.

For the record I just tried this in Mixcraft: instead of arming the track as a mono track (one input) I armed it as a stereo track instead (even although my guitar is only plugged into one input). Now the mono and mono/stereo plugins (GTR 3) have the exact same levels. The only difference is that with the mono plugin there is sound out of BOTH channels whereas with the mono/stereo plugin there is sound only on the left channel (which makes sense I guess).

OK. Just tried your setup. You're not joking!!! +30dB is added between the track input and the final output. And in this case it makes no difference whether you arm the track in Mixcraft as a mono (one) track or stereo (two) track input.

As Greg will stumble upon this thread later today I'm sure: I'm curious Greg. In another thread you note that there'll be no more updates for at least a year. But these (and from just being around here for a little while) and other stuff are actually bugs are they not??? In other words: this ain't "wishlist" stuff. What's the deal then with that???

Regards,

Dale.

[dpaterson]

Hi again Dale - I've just discovered that the Waves PRS SuperModels don't have a stereo version, only mono and mono/stereo. Based on what's I've seen so far I'd be surprised if the gain isn't already 6dB too hot when using those plugins.

Good point (and probably why I didn't see any difference between them).

With the PRS Supermodels though there is a "saving grace" i.e. as you know it can "learn" the correct input level and that seems to work nicely. But no such option for the GTR plugins.

Actually now you've got me REALLY curious. I also have BIAS Amp 2. And Amplitube 4. OK. Just checked. BIAS is ONLY a mono input so no issue to be resolved there. BUT: Amplitube 4 does the same thing i.e. if you change your input to stereo in Amplitube 4 then the output signal level drops (same as with the GTR 3 stuff). Interesting!!! And now that you have proved this: I'm guessing that because BIAS Amp 2 is ONLY in mono it's running hot no matter what.

Based on your chain: it would seem that each mono instance of these plugins adds 6dB gain to the previous output level. As I say: interesting!!! LOL!!!

Oh well. Let's see what "the powers that be" have to say about all of this.

Regards,

Dale.

[Frantiac]

Hi again, unfortunately I can't use the PRS Supermodels due to graphics card limitations so I use GTR (v9.3 for the same reason). Mind you every cloud has a silver lining and one of my favourites, the Simulanalog Rednef Twin, benefits from the 6dB anomaly. Sounds great with the bass rolled off completely and all else flat out, but I digress...

As you say, we'll wait to see what Greg and co. have to say,

regards,
Graham

[dpaterson]

Hey Graham.

That's a real pity about the PRS Supermodels. I will tell you honestly that out of ALL of these amp. sims. they're the only ones that don't sound like "mono bees in your head" straight out of the box (with no additional effects). You should see what you can do about that graphics card because you're missing out. BIAS is not too bad (but without adding effects it's also "dry and painful" out of the box). Amplitube 4: never got a decent sound out of it (other than one single little 'ol preset that I downloaded that somebody else created). Guitar Rig 5: only ever got a decent clean tone out of it. But I must say: "straight out of the box" GTR 3.5 also works just fine. Were it not for these PRS Supermodels though: I would have given up on amp. sims. TOTALLY (and, as a matter of fact, I'm still micing up my amps. instead i.e. still have not found a plugin substitute for this). Anyway. I TOO digress (from your issue!!! LOL!!!). Sorry.

Yip. Waiting keenly and in anticipation from Mr. Greg & Co.

Regards,

Dale.

P.S. I THOUGHT SimulAnalog sounded familiar. Just searched for it. I seem to remember trying that at one stage too. My problem is that with all the frustration I had with my FIRST two purchases (Amplitube 4 and Guitar Rig 5): if I don't get a nice, decent, full, wide sound "out of the box" then I just give up I suppose. I spent weeks on end trying to get something decent out of Amplitube 4 and Guitar Rig 5 and it just never happened so it's made me very impatient with these amp. sims. What really gets me are all these YouTube videos. The guys that do them (and have got a monster sound with whatever plugin they're using) are more often than not double tracking (which I see is never mentioned in their descriptions of their videos). Either that or they're piling on effects after the amp. sim. Now to me: that's not "out of the box" as they would have you believe and it really cheeses me off. Maybe I should make a video of all these amp. sims. without adding effects or double tracking and THEN see what people think of them!!! LOL!!! But as I say: the PRS Supermodels are the exception (for me anyway) and I think it's because you can run two cabs. and pan the channels and add some "air" and that's what makes the difference (not to mention that the distortion isn't "fuzzy" either).

[Frantiac]

Unfortunately my PC is old and has no available expansion slot for a graphics card. Need to win the lottery...

Off topic again: although I'm not a Marshall man myself (although I did have a great little 20w 1x12 piggyback setup back in the early '70s) the Simulanalog Marshall is still highly regarded. The mono-only original has no GUI but is zero latency and extremely CPU-friendly.

Cheers,
Graham

[dpaterson]

Okay, okay, I'm convinced (downloaded it again and will install and see again).

But GREG:

Don't miss the above stuff just because it looks as though we're having a general discussion here. Graham has a legitimate bug / issue so far as I can tell (I've been able to duplicate no problem).

Regards,

Dale.

[Acoustica Greg]

Hi,

The issue that some mono plugins seem to boost the level? Or a different issue? There's already a bug filed on that original issue, with a link to this topic.

There is no update on that issue at this time.

Greg