"If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

Thanks for chiming in Mark. Just to get personal for a minute, I happen to be at a stage in my life where I have a lot of energy and free time so it's healthy to have an overwhelming project to distract me. So I don't mind the messiness, and I'm going to try and stick with it. I really have learned a lot already.

Honestly, I have a workflow I use that's pretty smooth, and I could polish off this song to my liking in a few days working on my own. It's definitely more work than I anticipated, but the social interaction is good for me right now and I really do think this whole process will be of value to others down the road.

I'm not saying I just kicked a substance abuse problem or anything :wink: but that may have something to do with it...just saying. About to turn fifty this summer so it's time to get my ass in gear and this is almost like therapy for me.

This is going to take a while, but I think it's a very valuable exercise, especially in this day and age when remote collaboration is technically within reach of amateurs like us for the first time ever.

I would like to say straight out that I appreciate everyone's patience, there are now 5 guinea pigs with editing access to this project. At many points I'm going to have to make artistic decisions which I'm afraid will amount to negating a lot of hard work and effort on the part of the team. I think if everyone focuses on the goal being learning about collaboration rather than just producing this particular recording, then there will be less chance of hurt feelings. I'm a pretty sensitive guy and that's my worst fear all along, is stepping on toes. Once in a while I'm just going to have to say "I don't like that" and I hope everyone understands.

I'm really grateful for everyone's participation and patience.

Once in a while I will try to sum up some lessons learned. Who knows, maybe this project will inspire you to pick up where you left off on your project.

On another personal note, my wife's dad passed away this morning (92 and a peaceful passing). She's 3000 miles away in Oregon for a while so I've got nothing better to do anyway but mess with a project like this. I think I'm going to take control of the Dropbox folder for a day or two while I iron out a few technical thoughts.

There are not many active posters in the Acoustica forums, but the ones that are active are very laid back, and generous with their time and knowledge. It's good to know y'all!
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outteh
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by outteh »

Paul is doing an excellent job! He's got a great song there and very nicely put together. It's got some innuendo and sonic expression that's going to take some thought on accompaniment. :D :D
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

Anorax has demonstrated that plugin collection files can also be shared and transferred across machines and users. This is going to be a real boon to any collaboration project where participants are running different Mixcraft versions.

The Collections folder is located at

%appdata%\Acoustica\Mixcraft\Collections

or in other words

C:\Users\[Username]\AppData\Roaming\Acoustica\Mixcraft\Collections

He created collections of plugins unique to each version of Mixcraft, basic, 6 pro and 7 pro. This will be a huge assist since I want to avoid using 7-specific plugins until 6 basic users have finished tracking.
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

I'm going to take the PROJECT FILES folder local for a couple of days. I'll let you know when it's back online and where I'd like to go from there.
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Mark Bliss
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by Mark Bliss »

:lol: Just getting started with the headaches I see.

Alright, first, lets dispose of some of the politics.
One major thing I learned was that everyone was going to have a different interpretation and taste for not only the song and direction to take it, but everyone is going to have an opinionated idea of how to handle the project. And the project originator/director/producer is guaranteed to have a headache trying to wrangle even a few participants into his idea of how the project should go, and how the song should go. Then some strong willed person is going to jump in and tell you how it should all be done, just as you are starting to iron things out. Absolute sure thing.
So the first thing I want to let you know is that any experience or opinion I share is just that. Take it for what its worth. I am not going to be "that guy."

Hurt feelings/stepping on toes: Its really not likely to be as big a problem as you fear. Your project, your song, your baby. As long as it was made clear up front that participation is for the purpose of learning/fun, its likely all going to be fine in that regard. And really, if anyone contributes and feels bad their content was cut, should be fine in knowing they learned something, got practice and interacted. If they still feel it was a loss they will know that doing this kind of thing doesn't suit them and pass on participating next time. I wouldn't worry about it at all.

BUT! I would suggest you let people have some free reign and play around with this thing a bit, be open minded about the contributions and allow that in the end, you get to choose whether to keep/use ANY of it. One problem I see here is that you are using a song that is a little too dear to you for a first attempt at this. And this is why in my attempt I used a generic backing track and said "hey, play along with it and see what you come up with." And my intent was that in the end we would have a collection of tracks to mix and match and create some crazy mixed up songs from it. Free for all! Just fun and learning right? Ouch. Immediately ran into issues, starting with synching/timing. First up to bat Mr ambitious redid the backing tracks, added his own tracks and added a change to the intro and in what seemed like 30 seconds flat, threw the whole thing out of whack. But it was a wonderful shot right out of the park. I just had to go rearrange the whole thing to fit together again.......
And that was just the start of the headaches.

So general suggestions to start with:
Forget MP3's. Doesnt work and I am not going to write a long paragraph on why. Just trust me, forget it.

Clear instructions- there are two tracks. If you are going to work on them, make copies and work on them. Mute the original tracks if appropriate but otherwise leave them be!

I am still not 100% sure, are you looking more for performance collaboration or mixing collaboration?

As you are discovering, collaboration as an open project creates more problems by at least ten fold. Its a great idea untill you run smack into the reality of it.
If looking to add performance/tracks, I would suggest that having people just drop stems as .wav files into a Dropbox folder eliminates tons of issues. Just one caveat: The track must start at the beginning of the project so you can drag and drop it into the project with no timing issues. This eliminates much of the issues with plug ins to start with. If you really like something and want to peak under the hood, it would be easier to have them drop a small project with just that work, instead of an ever growing big project file.

Markus and anyone else affected by the compatibility of different versions:
This one is easy, I simply posted a copy of the backing tracks on soundcloud, where anyone with any version can download them and drag them into any DAW as .wav files. The same thing happens if there is a folder of .wav stems in the Dropbox. And then anyone can post their demo of their idea into the Soundcloud group. In my case nearly no one did that, and I am still unsure why, but it is a really easy solution.

When you posted reaching out for mixing help. I read it and immediately began my chant: No Mark, you dont have time to consider it. Over and over. :lol: But my other thoughts might give you some insight, so I will share them in that vein.
First, the only way I would consider it would go like this- You post or share your demo and a description of what your vision of the song/style etc. is, and then if I were interested, share with me only the raw stems, as recorded.
I have been mixing a lot of other peoples projects (as practice and learning tools) over the last 2 plus years, and the number one thing I have learned is that I have to have a certain amount of a good feeling for the project from the start. The fact that it takes listening over and over until I am sick of even the greatest songs means I will not bother with songs I don't get that feeling for upon first exposure. And also, hopefully I am getting to the point where I can work more on my own projects and ideas.
With time and practice you get more efficient and it goes faster, but it still takes me a long time and I frequently find I have to walk away from a project for a while, at least until I quit hearing it constantly in my head.
(Thank goodness) I don't do this for work or income, I don't know how people work in styles/genres they don't care for. I have broad and eclectic tastes, but If I had to mix EDM, Hip hop, rap, trance, whatever....... Even most Pop, or current music in general.......
I would literally rather mow the grass. This is something I do for fun. I just take my fun more seriously than some I think.

Is that all? I think thats all for the moment.
Play nice. Oh, and hand me the Banjo.
Stay in tune, Mark

My SOUNDCLOUD Page
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

Yup, lots to think about there from someone who's 'been there'. Will take a couple days and come up with some 'ground rules'. Would love to hear more opinions in the meantime.
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outteh
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by outteh »

Mark said: " Ouch. Immediately ran into issues, starting with synching/timing. First up to bat Mr ambitious redid the backing tracks, added his own tracks and added a change to the intro and in what seemed like 30 seconds flat, threw the whole thing out of whack. But it was a wonderful shot right out of the park. I just had to go rearrange the whole thing to fit together again.......
And that was just the start of the headaches. "

I beleive I might be Mr. ambitious! :lol: I'll try not to get as carried away, if you want to hear what we did it's titled OFC Band on my soundcloud page.
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

outteh wrote:
I beleive I might be Mr. ambitious! :lol:
What, I can't believe that of you, Mr. Why Put Just One 32 Band eq on a track when you can stack another equ on top of it :wink: :lol:

The more I think about it, the more I'm like, what the heck, let's get creative AND learn some engineering skills and mess about. Mark is probably right about working on a 'neutral' song for starters, but that is not in my nature, I just can't get any interest up for a cover. I've got a couple ideas percolating on how to hit the 'reset' button and move forward in a more cohesive way. I realize this could take months but as long as the learning continues then I'm game. Sure, it's going to be a cluster, but what the heck.

One thing I think I will do is email all the current participants and ask the question:

What do you consider your strengths and weaknesses musically or technically and what are you most keen to improve on?

For example, me: I think I've got a decent voice, and can play some chunky but acceptable rhythm guitar, and have an ear for harmony. On the other hand, I don't have the skillz for electric or solo guitar work, and e.q. is something I can't do well because I'm deafish. Also percussion I find a chore. I also don't have much patience for tweaking compression and leveling (I'll tweak a setting or use a preset and walk away). I can spend hours comping a vocal track, love that, but I suck at merging live instrument tracks. That sort of thing.
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AHornsby
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by AHornsby »

Mark Bliss wrote: I just take my fun more seriously than some I think.
That's right. Loving those things we do to occupy our time sure beats working at the post office.
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

Cleaned up a few things, touched up the rhythm guitar, put a .wav in dropbox for Markus to start working on guitar ideas with in Mixcraft 6 basic. Put a count in at the start. Did a little note maneuvering on the bass but left it mostly intact. Copied most of the effects Tom had used.

I gotta go to work, this took 6 hours!! Holy crap. Dupe all the tracks you guys want and mess around, the project files are back in the dropbox folder.

If someone wants to play percussion: think footsteps, think Ringo on "Two of us", that sort of thing, very simple OR it can wait!!!!! I gotta get outta here.

https://soundcloud.com/if-i-didntcare/0 ... didnt-care
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Mark Bliss
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by Mark Bliss »

outteh wrote: I beleive I might be Mr. ambitious! :lol:
Could be. I wasn't pointing fingers. :lol:
And I wasn't complaining, just explaining how the results of trying to do this can be so unexpected!
FWIW, Toms contributions were fantastic, and I think we had something going. I was just overwhelmed at how much work it quickly turned into.
Stay in tune, Mark

My SOUNDCLOUD Page
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Mark Bliss
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by Mark Bliss »

One more suggestion I forgot about before-
It might be helpful to provide at least the key. A basic chord progression would be a bonus.
Stay in tune, Mark

My SOUNDCLOUD Page
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freightgod
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by freightgod »

Mark Bliss wrote:One more suggestion I forgot about before-
It might be helpful to provide at least the key. A basic chord progression would be a bonus.
There's a lyric sheet in the project folder with chords. I have no idea about keys, lol. I assume C?
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outteh
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by outteh »

Yep key of C, simple progression but very well syncopated. Took me a bit to figure out what Paul was doing. Mark, you should take a listen. :wink:
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outteh
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Re: "If I Didn't Care" semi-open collaboration project

Post by outteh »

Added a brush percussion track to the project. Work with it as you want. It is a little out of time in some places but that is because our main tempo "floats" in some areas. :)
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